Valence U27-12XP Lifepo4 Lithium Battery -- How We Done It --

[andys]

Just out of interest, I weighed everything I took out of my old AGM setup and compared it to everything that went in with the Valence (batteries included in both cases) and thre was a net weight saving of 7kg. This means I can put a stone on over xmas without altering the power to weight ratio

 

[Jollyvan]

So what is everyone doing with their perfectly good AGM leisure batteries.? Making a battery box seems to be defeating the whole object of the exercise.

 

[drew_greenday]

So what is everyone doing with their perfectly good AGM leisure batteries.? Making a battery box seems to be defeating the whole object of the exercise.

I think i'll hook mine up to a cheap solar set up and use in the garden or just for pottering about in the garage. I might want to set things up to test in there?

I do have my old b2b and other equipment I'm not using though. i might fit them to my mates van if he wants it

 

[ched]

So, I've left the battery alone for a couple of days – NOT connected to the Valence diagnostic software with USB and it appears further cell balancing has occurred?
I thought the balancing was only possible if the comms port/usb was connected/receiving +5v?

Any ideas? Does this mean cell balancing is happening 'naturally' as the battery voltage decreases slightly?

You can see below, the cell spread has fallen below the limit of '10mV' from around '25-30mV' a couple of days back.

 

[Dilbert]

I thought the balancing was only possible if the comms port/usb was connected/receiving +5v?

You are correct.

The main reason for the active balancing circuitry is to stop individual cells getting ahead of themselves which generally occurs during charging. I think what you are observing is just the natural chemistry settling to a normal state after charging.

 

[andys]

So what is everyone doing with their perfectly good AGM leisure batteries.? Making a battery box seems to be defeating the whole object of the exercise.

Mine died which brought forward my need to get the Valence installed

 

[ched]

I think what you are observing is just the natural chemistry settling to a normal state after charging.

Yes, that's what I suspected...
I guess it's good to know that the battery behaves this way when 'resting' and that a small amount of cell spread like I had after a full charge isn't a big deal.

 

[andys]

I ordered this -50-110°C W1209 12V Digital Thermostat Sensor Temperature Control Switch Module 606034481077 | eBay and it was waiting for me when I got home tonight. Just been having a play and it works rather well, cuts off the relay at the temperature you select and only closes the relay when it's 2 degrees above the target temperature. I was going to have a manual switch to turn off the Victron DC/DC in the unlikely event that I'll be driving it while below 5C in the cab, but I think I'll try connecting this in line with the remote turn off connector and the Smart sense temperature feed to disable the MPPT. I don't need a LTD for the EHU charger.

No pics I'm afraid but I can report that this works, though it does take a bit of fudging. I tested it out by setting the cutoff temperature to 14ºC and it did indeed cut off charging by the Orion B2B charger and it clicked back in when the temperature read 16ºC. The temperature sensor is fixed to the + battery terminal, right next to the Victron Smart sense temperature sensor and consistently reported the temperature to be 2ºC lower than the one reported by the Victron network. As a result, I've set the temperature of this thermostat to cut charging when it reads 3ºC rather than 5ºC. The MPPT is set to cut off at 5ºC using the Victron temperature sensor. I don't intend fitting a low temperature cutoff to the (yet to be fitted) replacement Victron 240v charger as I very rarely use EHU and if I do, I just won't if the temperature is low.

 

[andys]

No pics I'm afraid but I can report that this works, though it does take a bit of fudging. I tested it out by setting the cutoff temperature to 14ºC and it did indeed cut off charging by the Orion B2B charger and it clicked back in when the temperature read 16ºC. The temperature sensor is fixed to the + battery terminal, right next to the Victron Smart sense temperature sensor and consistently reported the temperature to be 2ºC lower than the one reported by the Victron network. As a result, I've set the temperature of this thermostat to cut charging when it reads 3ºC rather than 5ºC. The MPPT is set to cut off at 5ºC using the Victron temperature sensor. I don't intend fitting a low temperature cutoff to the (yet to be fitted) replacement Victron 240v charger as I very rarely use EHU and if I do, I just won't if the temperature is low.

Took a photo but probably doesn't help much. At least the readout can be seen from the front though

 

[Jollyvan]

Hi fellow Valence fitters. I need some more help.
I am about to install into the van and I am setting up the BMV and Battery Protect. Can you share your settings for Smart Battery Protect. I was hoping to set the low battery cut off to 11.5V but if I select the Li-ion profile it sets the shut down value to 10V and this is not variable. It also pre-selects mode C. Do you use these settings? I also notice that if I disconnect the supply via bluetooth there is still a voltage of 3.5V measurable on the out side of the BP. ( I was hoping to use this as the battery isolator)
Whilst I'm here I've set the Discharge Floor on my BMV to 5% I hope this is correct as elsewhere on the Forum I've seen 95% mentioned.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Dilbert]

I was hoping to set the low battery cut off to 11.5V

You need to setup a 'User defined' profile . I have mine set for 11.50V Shutdown and 12.25V Restart. Mode = A, Operation = Normal, Alarm output = Buzzer/LED.

I also notice that if I disconnect the supply via bluetooth there is still a voltage of 3.5V measurable on the out side of the BP.

Are you measuring this voltage with no load attached to the Battery Protect? If so, you are just measuring the high impedance leakage that you would not see if a load was connected. Mine shows 0V when off and the load circuits connected.

I've set the Discharge Floor on my BMV to 5% I hope this is correct

Yes, 5% is fine. I now have mine set to 0% after checking the tracking of SOC during discharge.

 

[Jollyvan]

Many thanks @Dilbert I had set up a user profile before ticking the Li-ion pre-set so I can go back to that. Again I appreciate your prompt help with this.

 

[andys]

Well yesterday was my first long-ish trip in the van and a chance to try out the new setup, which threw up a couple of interesting issues. I disabled the screen turn off of my phone and kept the Victron app open with my Orion 12/30 DC-DC charger selected.

The temperature in the garage was +3°C and the outside temperature was reading as +0.5C so I was happy to see the charging was disabled by my thermostat, but what did surprise me was that it took another 23 minutes of driving before the battery temperature was sufficiently high to start charging! Something to bear in mind if you drive shorter distances than that in cold weather regularly and need to use your leisure battery. Admittedly I don’t really like heat and don’t have the heating very high, but still, almost half an hour to get up to temp took me by surprise.

But then came a problem, it now said it was still not going to charge as it was below the voltage lockout limit. So I pulled over, quickly changed the lockout voltage to 12.0v just to get it charging and set off again. Still wouldn’t charge though, this time saying that it had detected the engine wasn’t running. Pulled over again and changed the engine detection voltage from the 13v it was set to 12.7v and off I went again. Still no charging. I didn’t really have the time to keep doing this but pulled over one last time and set the engine detection voltage to 12.2v, this did the trick and the charger came to life.

Thought no more about this until when I was sat on my parents drive, I got a warning from the BM2 connected to my starter battery that the voltage was low. Turned out that the Orion had carried on charging the leisure battery until it had run the starter down below 12.2v as it now still thought the engine was running. I turned up the engine detection voltage to 12.3v and all seemed well for then, and the subsequent journey home.

This seems very low though, what have others set theirs to? I would much prefer an ignition live trigger, as I had on my Ctek, and I know the Orion has a remote trigger connection but I am using that for temperature control and that certainly seems to be needed.

The eBay thermostat I used and the Renogy power monitor clone recommended by @Hickey are definite successes, just need to sort this engine running trigger issue and this setup is spot on.

 

[Dilbert]

I turned up the engine detection voltage to 12.3v and all seemed well for then, and the subsequent journey home.
This seems very low though, what have others set theirs to?

I am still using a Sterling BB1230. It has similar settings for automated engine run detection based on engine battery voltages. I had to modify the factory default when we had our unit and it is set to 12.8V cut-off and 13.0V charging voltage. The lower voltage trip is set to 11.7V. The Sterling 'Blue motion'/smart alternator engine run detection works by starting a timer at the cut-off voltage, the timer is then reset when it seen the charging voltage again. It the voltage does not reach the charging voltage within the set timer period, the charger cuts out. I also changed this timed period to 240 seconds.

This setup has worked fine on our van for 4 years but, when I did the work for the Valance battery install, I did introduce an ignition feed to control the battery to battery charger. Like you, I prefer this option and it allowed me to control the charge low temperature cut-off using the BMV relay setup.

 

[andys]

I am still using a Sterling BB1230. It has similar settings for automated engine run detection based on engine battery voltages. I had to modify the factory default when we had our unit and it is set to 12.8V cut-off and 13.0V charging voltage. The lower voltage trip is set to 11.7V. The Sterling 'Blue motion'/smart alternator engine run detection works by starting a timer at the cut-off voltage, the timer is then reset when it seen the charging voltage again. It the voltage does not reach the charging voltage within the set timer period, the charger cuts out. I also changed this timed period to 240 seconds.

This setup has worked fine on our van for 4 years but, when I did the work for the Valance battery install, I did introduce an ignition feed to control the battery to battery charger. Like you, I prefer this option and it allowed me to control the charge low temperature cut-off using the BMV relay setup.

Thanks you've made my mind up what to do. I think rather than me playing around with where to set the voltage, I'll go back to using an ignition live feed and disable the engine running detection. I can then run this through a relay controlled by the thermostat so that charging only happens when both conditions are met.

 

[ched]

I’m with you guys on using the ignition live for charging on/off...

Just a watch-out for when you wire to the L-pin from the ignition live... it also needs bridging to the the H-pin. I say this, as it’s really hard to see in the printed manual - it’s so tiny! It was only when looking at the digital/pdf version that I noticed it...

 

[andys]

Yes I saw that and couldn’t quite get my head around it. When used as a remote switch (as I do with my thermostat relay) it functions as simple switch ie make or break the link to start/stop charging, but when used with +12v as a trigger it needs feeding to both sides. Can someone with more electronic knowledge than me explain what’s going on inside? It doesn’t make what I’m going to do any more difficult, it just puzzles me.

 

[ched]

Yes I saw that and couldn’t quite get my head around it. When used as a remote switch (as I do with my thermostat relay) it functions as simple switch ie make or break the link to start/stop charging, but when used with +12v as a trigger it needs feeding to both sides. Can someone with more electronic knowledge than me explain what’s going on inside? It doesn’t make what I’m going to do any more difficult, it just puzzles me.

I’m just as confused as you @andys...

What I don’t get is that, any bridge between the L and H pin means the charger is ‘on’ - regardless if any voltage is being applied to it. If we apply >7v to the L pin as stated in the manual, then great, we bypass the engine detection and force the charger to run, but by bridging to the H pin, surely this means that with the ignition off, the unit will remain on and revert back to engine detection mode?

I’m wondering if the best option is to wire the ignition feed to the H-pin only which has an ‘on’ signal when >3v is applied? A single, inline switch could be used as a master on/off. However, although the charger would turn on with the ignition using this set-up, it would still be engine detection mode.

 

[andys]

I’m just as confused as you @andys...

What I don’t get is that, any bridge between the L and H pin means the charger is ‘on’ - regardless if any voltage is being applied to it. If we apply >7v to the L pin as stated in the manual, then great, we bypass the engine detection and force the charger to run, but by bridging to the H pin, surely this means that with the ignition off, the unit will remain on and revert back to engine detection mode?

I’m wondering if the best option is to wire the ignition feed to the H-pin only which has an ‘on’ signal when >3v is applied? A single, inline switch could be used as a master on/off. However, although the charger would turn on with the ignition using this set-up, it would still be engine detection mode.

I think what I’m going to do is to turn off engine detection mode and leave my thermostat connection as it is, but then break one of the connections from it and run it through a separate relay controlled by the ignition live connection. Effectively giving me two switches in series that both have to be on for charging to operate. It’s more work (sick of taking seats out and knackering my back) but at least it’s foolproof and takes the decision away from the Orion.

 

[Dilbert]

@ched
@andys

I have no hands-on experience of the the Victron Orion chargers but I have had a look at the full manual.

Please note that there is a difference between 'Remote on/off' and 'Engine detection override'.

• Remote on/off allows you to disable or enable the charger. When the charger is enabled, it uses the 'Engine on detection algorithm' to determine when to charge the battery.
• Engine detection override simply turns the charger on and off with a control signal (e.g. switched 12V from ignition). The 'Engine on detection algorithm' is ignored.

I would recommend you use 'Remote on/off' to control when the charger is enabled. This allows you to disable the charger in low temperatures. The key advantage is that you will not run your engine battery down if you simply leave the ignition on! This is because the engine still has to be running before charging is enabled.

You can use option (b) to switch from +12V [connect to H only] or (d) to switch to ground [connect to L only]. A relay could also be used as the switch if that works better for you.


'Figure 3: Remote on/off connections' from page 9 of the full manual.

NOTE: If you connect both L and H together to +12V, you will disable the 'Engine on detection algorithm', i.e. place the charger into 'Engine detection override' mode.

Hope this helps.