Oil Analysis shows high levels of Iron

[catfood12]

Mates

I regularly get engine oil analysed, and never really have an issue. Report has just come back form the T6. 2017, 204 (CXEB), 45K miles. Oil is 12 months, 7k miles old, TPS Quantum 5W40, high levels of iron;



For comparison, my 140K mile old Cayenne 4.2 V8D came back at 29PPM iron. A 1200 mile BMW S58 engine came back at 25ppm iron and a 3K mile well driven Golf EA688 24ppm.

50ppm seems to be limit to start investigations, 100ppm is max permissible. I guess above that it turns to grinding paste!

I would think this is more likely form the bores than the crank, and could be bore scoring starting. Oil consumption is negligible, no other issues whatsoever. The 204 doesn't suffer from the same EGR cooler corrosion as the 180, but I guess if the EGR valve is stuck, it's ingesting all sorts of lumpy bits.

If it was crank, I'd expect to see higher copper readings as the shells would be wearing. No fuel or water in the oil which is good.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

[DXX]

Mates

I regularly get engine oil analysed, and never really have an issue. Report has just come back form the T6. 2017, 204 (CXEB), 45K miles. Oil is 12 months, 7k miles old, TPS Quantum 5W40, high levels of iron;

View attachment 197905

For comparison, my 140K mile old Cayenne 4.2 V8D came back at 29PPM iron. A 1200 mile BMW S58 engine came back at 25ppm iron and a 3K mile well driven Golf EA688 24ppm.

50ppm seems to be limit to start investigations, 100ppm is max permissible. I guess above that it turns to grinding paste!

I would think this is more likely form the bores than the crank, and could be bore scoring starting. Oil consumption is negligible, no other issues whatsoever. The 204 doesn't suffer from the same EGR cooler corrosion as the 180, but I guess if the EGR valve is stuck, it's ingesting all sorts of lumpy bits.

If it was crank, I'd expect to see higher copper readings as the shells would be wearing. No fuel or water in the oil which is good.

Any thoughts or comments?

I agree with your comments on low level of copper regarding bearing wear, backed to by zero tin or lead.
If the iron contamination is from bore wear I would expect some piston ring wear to go with it, I’m not sure how the rings are manufactured but some chromium is usually used and the results only show 1 ppm.
I assume that you’ve eliminated external contamination; no engine strip downs within the last couple of oil changes, very easy to introduce contamination with an open engine. Mechanics working on other peoples vehicles rarely care enough about keeping the parts clean no piece of rag is clean enough to be the last thing to touch an engine component.

You could just carry out a couple of oil changes in quick succession and get 2000 miles in before sampling again.
You could remove the sump and /or cam cover and make a few visual checks.

You didn’t mention if this is the first test on the van? The value in the data is in spotting a trend after a few tests.

 

[catfood12]

Forgot about this thread.....
Oddly this is the first oil analysis I have done on the T6, I have several on everything else, but never done one on the T6. It's gone to VW for stamps in the book, and I've done intermediate oil changes too.

The thermostat has been playing up for the last couple of winters, and it's taken ages to warm up, like 10+ miles, even then needing the heater off to get fully up to temp. I wonder if it's been wearing the bores excessively, as the pistons warm up and expand in a couple of minutes, then run tight until the cast block warms through?

Anyway, I've just bought a 'stat and timing belt kit from TPS to stick in. Will retest at the end of the year.

 

[Insert Coin]

Could you do a compression check to see if the bores have worn excessively?

 

[catfood12]

Could you do a compression check to see if the bores have worn excessively?

Yes, I think plan will be to pull the injectors out and look down the bores, and do a compression test too. I can't think where else it's coming from. The thing hasn't been to bits ever, and uses negligible oil.

 

[catfood12]

I agree with your comments on low level of copper regarding bearing wear, backed to by zero tin or lead.
If the iron contamination is from bore wear I would expect some piston ring wear to go with it, I’m not sure how the rings are manufactured but some chromium is usually used and the results only show 1 ppm.
I assume that you’ve eliminated external contamination; no engine strip downs within the last couple of oil changes, very easy to introduce contamination with an open engine. Mechanics working on other peoples vehicles rarely care enough about keeping the parts clean no piece of rag is clean enough to be the last thing to touch an engine component.

You could just carry out a couple of oil changes in quick succession and get 2000 miles in before sampling again.
You could remove the sump and /or cam cover and make a few visual checks.

You didn’t mention if this is the first test on the van? The value in the data is in spotting a trend after a few tests.

The thing hasn't been to bits, no noises or other issues. I've just seen the @Birsey thread and his intake manifold. Although I've never had any of his longstanding issues.

I'll get on it in the next couple of weeks, and will pull the EGR cooler off and have a look at that. The issue can only be stuck EGR or recent wear from it not warming up thoroughly.

I'm looking for DSG cooler options too, as the trans has been getting hot and notchy after lots of towing, so will pull the front PU off to do all of these jobs at the same time.

 

[Insert Coin]

Yes, I think plan will be to pull the injectors out and look down the bores, and do a compression test too. I can't think where else it's coming from. The thing hasn't been to bits ever, and uses negligible oil.

It might give a bit of peace of mind if you know the compression is good, but now you’ve got me thinking about sending off an oil sample

 

[Deleted member 224]

How long do i need to wait after an oil change/service before doing getting an OAK and checking results for contamination or other potential issues going on

 

[DXX]

How long do i need to wait after an oil change/service before doing getting an OAK and checking results for contamination or other potential issues going on

If you have heavy contamination it will probably show straight away as a single oil change won’t remove all contaminants.
I would get a minimum of 2000 miles in on the oil before doing the sampling. Make sure all data entered on the form is correct or you won’t get an accurate report. If you suspect that the EGR valve is fouled and constantly open / partially open mention it in the comments so that that is reflected in the soot in oil results.

 

[Deleted member 224]

Thanks again, I’ll get this done in a couple of months

 

[Kombine]

After worrying my oil consumption was high on our 204 I sent a sample off to get tested.

The key results were
High soot at 2.4%
Iron at 163ppm
Molybdenum at 63ppm
Boron at 21ppm

However in the comments it was deemed that wear metals were satisfactory but the soot level is critical.

Is the soot egr related? And is the iron content high enough for a concern?

 

[DXX]

After worrying my oil consumption was high on our 204 I sent a sample off to get tested.

The key results were
High soot at 2.4%
Iron at 163ppm
Molybdenum at 63ppm
Boron at 21ppm

However in the comments it was deemed that wear metals were satisfactory but the soot level is critical.

Is the soot egr related? And is the iron content high enough for a concern?

Miller regard the soot limit as 2% otherwise the viscosity cannot be determined.
All soot is from combustion, whether first time around or re-circulated through the EGR. An oil and filter change would be a good idea.

Here’s the MIller failure criteria

 

[Kombine]

Miller regard the soot limit as 2% otherwise the viscosity cannot be determined.
All soot is from combustion, whether first time around or re-circulated through the EGR. An oil and filter change would be a good idea.

Here’s the MIller failure criteria

View attachment 207168

Thanks,
Yes oil was nearly 12000 miles old and is now changed, certainly makes me want to shorten time between changes too.

 

[Joesflooring]

Did anyone ever find an explanation for the high levels of soot ?
Did anyone inspect the EGR ?
Just had my oil analysis back from Milner, shows soot level is at 2%, oil is on 7800 miles.
Reason for doing the analysis is, I think it may be burning a touch of oil
I’ve just done an oil change for peace of mind, but would like to get to the bottom of it.
Many thanks joe (t6 204)

 

[Kombine]

Did anyone ever find an explanation for the high levels of soot ?
Did anyone inspect the EGR ?
Just had my oil analysis back from Milner, shows soot level is at 2%, oil is on 7800 miles.
Reason for doing the analysis is, I think it may be burning a touch of oil
I’ve just done an oil change for peace of mind, but would like to get to the bottom of it.
Many thanks joe (t6 204)

No I haven't taken it any further but need to investigate further a few fault codes, one of which is egr related.
However since changing the oil and having driven around 2k miles it has not used any significant amount of oil.

 

[Joesflooring]

No I haven't taken it any further but need to investigate further a few fault codes, one of which is egr related.
However since changing the oil and having driven around 2k miles it has not used any significant amount of oil.

That’s good to hear. I’ve done 1500 miles and no oil loss yet. In going to get the adblue and egr deleted as I can only think that this is the cause of the problem.

 

[DXX]

Did anyone ever find an explanation for the high levels of soot ?
Did anyone inspect the EGR ?
Just had my oil analysis back from Milner, shows soot level is at 2%, oil is on 7800 miles.
Reason for doing the analysis is, I think it may be burning a touch of oil
I’ve just done an oil change for peace of mind, but would like to get to the bottom of it.
Many thanks joe (t6 204)

The EGR is re-circulating exhaust gases containing soot which in turn lower the combustion temperature creating more soot. When the EGR valve eventually gets seized open it will pass re-circulate exhaust gases whether the ECU calls of it or not.
High boost pressure push blow-by gases past the piston rings, hence the high carbon oil in the engine oil.
Add re-generations and there will be some carbon washed past the piston rings into the oil.
The EGR and re-generation cycles are a destroying the lubrication properties of the engine oil and gumming up piston rings.

 

[Amymax18]

The EGR is re-circulating exhaust gases containing soot which in turn lower the combustion temperature creating more soot. When the EGR valve eventually gets seized open it will pass re-circulate exhaust gases whether the ECU calls of it or not.
High boost pressure push blow-by gases past the piston rings, hence the high carbon oil in the engine oil.
Add re-generations and there will be some carbon washed past the piston rings into the oil.
The EGR and re-generation cycles are a destroying the lubrication properties of the engine oil and gumming up piston rings.

I've just had an oil analysis back with high levels of soot, van does seem to be doing a regen every 150 miles when it hits 24g regardless of driving, do you think this would point to goosed egr valve ?

Edited to add sample oil was 5k old and soot level was 1.3%!

 

[Texxaco]

It might give a bit of peace of mind if you know the compression is good, but now you’ve got me thinking about sending off an oil sample

I had this thought the other day too, then my anxiety kicked in and I thought I would rather not know.

How much does it cost and who do you send the sample to?

 

[Amymax18]

I had this thought the other day too, then my anxiety kicked in and I thought I would rather not know.

How much does it cost and who do you send the sample to?

Funny you should say that, I had the kit in a cupboard for months avoiding the inevitable! It's about £40 from millers oils and you'll need a syringe and long piece of tubing to extract the oil.