V5 Documentation - DVLA Rule Change for Motor Caravan Reregistration June 2019

[czmate1999]

Hi,

I have received a reply form the DVSA:

---
Thank you for your email enquiry dated (insert date), concerning

Please fin the link for Speed Limits taken fromGOV.UK

Speed limits


If the vehicle is a fully fitted camper van it will be tested as a Class 4 test.

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

 

[czmate1999]

So according to my V5 my vehicle (T32 LWB) is categorised as N1.

Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes.

So from the response from the DVSA I take it to assume that my van must stick to the below speed limits:


and once concerted to a campervan (motor home in all but classification) the limits will be based on,



But my question is that as the gross unladen weight of my van is 2,213kg and it has a total payload capacity of 987kg and the total weight once converted is likely to be less than 3.05 tonnes so would i qualify for the below speed limits?



A question to be put back to them i feel... Any thoughts?

 

[czmate1999]

PS. I have also asked them to clarify on the MOT - Class 4 test statement - if the van is still categorised as N1...

 

[Grim Reaper]

The question they have failed to answer is “even if the v5 shows as van with windows, if the vehicle complies with the requirements for internal fittings of a motor caravan, do the speed limits for motor caravans apply”
They have not clarified whether a van with windows can actually do 70 on dual carriageways if it is fitted out as a motor caravan since there is no mention of van with windows in that list.
And if they do say it can do 70, someone should point out that it would have been much easier in the long run to just change the v5 to motor caravan so we don’t get the expected scenario of having to dispute speeding tickets when there is no obvious way of telling from the outside that the vehicle complies with the rules for doing 70.

 

[Grim Reaper]

MoT is “as presented”, so if the tester thinks it’s a motor caravan when he looks at it, he tests it as if it is, doesn’t matter what the v5 says.

 

[czmate1999]

The question they have failed to answer is “even if the v5 shows as van with windows, if the vehicle complies with the requirements for internal fittings of a motor caravan, do the speed limits for motor caravans apply”
They have not clarified whether a van with windows can actually do 70 on dual carriageways if it is fitted out as a motor caravan since there is no mention of van with windows in that list.
And if they do say it can do 70, someone should point out that it would have been much easier in the long run to just change the v5 to motor caravan so we don’t get the expected scenario of having to dispute speeding tickets when there is no obvious way of telling from the outside that the vehicle complies with the rules for doing 70.

Hi,

I do not think the window van option is relevant, nor is the pop-top. I think it will come down to weight and the fact if you fit the criteria of being a camper despite your classification being N1.

In any case I do not feel it is clear and it should be. So we will see what they come back with.

Still waiting on DfT...

 

[Jim Rey]

Only your insurer knows your personal circumstances. Views of people on a forum would be from a totally different perspective and would be of a limited value. You would get a clear idea as to any change from your own insurer. Did you not query it with them upon commencement of the self-build as your finished vehicle would be a campervan or motor caravan? Usually insurers that cater for self builds have a set of requirements like the dvla for the finished van to have.

Really? "a totally different perspective" ; are there not people on here who have converted their vans, then find they can't get a re-class, then had to go back to their insurer? Not the same circumstances sure, but similar ...probably.

 

[Ayjay]

FWIW, buying my [already but newly converted and not re-registered] T6 camper coincided with the rule change and when I first bought the insurance from JustKampers, I told them that it was not registered as a camper but the V5 had been sent toDVLA with the 'evidence package' and request for recategorisation (or whatever it's called) and change of ownership. I subsequently had to go back to JK to tell them that the request for recategorisation had been turned down as result of a DVLA policy change. It took a while to get it out of them but they eventually sent me a letter stating that they insured my van as a 'motor caravan' regardless of how the DVLA recorded it and that my insurance costs were unchanged.

 

[oldiebut goodie]

Really? "a totally different perspective" ; are there not people on here who have converted their vans, then find they can't get a re-class, then had to go back to their insurer? Not the same circumstances sure, but similar ...probably.

For some reason you are shying away from contacting your own insurer. No two quotes for insurance will be the same as there are too many variables involved especially with a self build. You are normally insured to cover your build as it progresses towards the finished article, being completed within a defined time frame which was stipulated at commencement of build. Are you saying that you have not insured your vehicle for the build then?

 

[Jim Rey]

FWIW, buying my [already but newly converted and not re-registered] T6 camper coincided with the rule change and when I first bought the insurance from JustKampers, I told them that it was not registered as a camper but the V5 had been sent toDVLA with the 'evidence package' and request for recategorisation (or whatever it's called) and change of ownership. I subsequently had to go back to JK to tell them that the request for recategorisation had been turned down as result of a DVLA policy change. It took a while to get it out of them but they eventually sent me a letter stating that they insured my van as a 'motor caravan' regardless of how the DVLA recorded it and that my insurance costs were unchanged.

that's good to know cheers

 

[Jim Rey]

For some reason you are shying away from contacting your own insurer. No two quotes for insurance will be the same as there are too many variables involved especially with a self build. You are normally insured to cover your build as it progresses towards the finished article, being completed within a defined time frame which was stipulated at commencement of build. Are you saying that you have not insured your vehicle for the build then?

Am I? I had no time frame stipulated. I have contacted them and I need to contact them again once I have heard back from DVLA.
Did I say that I had not insured my vehicle for the build? I think it would not have been wise for me not to insure the van as a "Camper in Conversion" . I don't know why you think I am suggesting that. There might be many variables, as you suggest, but there will be an underlying trend emerging from different people's circumstances. That trend will show whether insurance companies will show understanding of the constraints (especially for VW Transporter and other light vans) placed upon us by these rule changes. Getting feedback from others will help us make an informed choice. My Thanks to AyJay for his response to my questions. At least I know of one other's experience with Just Kampers...so that might be a future option.

 

[oldiebut goodie]

Insurance companies have always insured the vehicle as a campervan/motor caravan irrespective of the V5 - those that insist on a V5 change just don't get the business. I have never had any difficulty in getting insurance for my vans - none of which had body type 'motor caravan' on the V5 but were campervans. I don't understand why people have to keep asking the same thing time and time again as though it were impossible to get insurance cover for a self-build van.
What the dvla says or does not say will not affect the ability to insure a vehicle, you agree a value as a campervan/whatever with the insurers and they assume the risk or not as the case may be.

 

[Jim Rey]

Insurance companies have always insured the vehicle as a campervan/motor caravan irrespective of the V5 - those that insist on a V5 change just don't get the business. I have never had any difficulty in getting insurance for my vans - none of which had body type 'motor caravan' on the V5 but were campervans. I don't understand why people have to keep asking the same thing time and time again as though it were impossible to get insurance cover for a self-build van.
What the dvla says or does not say will not affect the ability to insure a vehicle, you agree a value as a campervan/whatever with the insurers and they assume the risk or not as the case may be.

Good to know you had no difficulty ever getting insurance in spite of the V5C vehicle type. The question in my mind was whether such insurance would be more expensive as a result of the DVLA changes and their reluctance to re-class since earlier this year.
It must be annoying for you, I understand, to see the same or similar related questions, but being a "newbie" to this forum it is a new question for me. I did search the forum but only "re the DVLA changes" only, and not specifically "getting van insurance". Now, I have a bit more knowledge on the subject; which is why I asked the question in the first place. Thank you for your input.

 

[czmate1999]

My concern is the confusion over the speed limits and I would like to have it sorted so that I can drive within the accepted limits. I think that the DVLA, DVSA and DfT have all been very woolly on this. I do not think deliberately but through inefficiency.

I do feel that they should issue clear guidance that is unambiguous and not open to interpretation. Hence my persistence here.

Best,

CZ.

 

[$immo]

To add to the mix, I read on fb I think, someone changed their reg to a private plate, and their previous motor caravan status has been changed to panel van with windows.
I am not going now down the path of private plate.....

Just want to put this rumour to bed....
My T6 was converted by myself and submitted to DVLA before the changes so my V5 shows Motorcaravan. I wasn't really that bothered about what was written on the V5, as for me it's just about enjoying my camper and having adventures. Wasn't worried if it showed van with windows.

Last week I transferred a private plate to my T6, the V5 came back this week still with MotorCaravan on the V5. So no change, just in case anyone was worried about buying a private number plate.

 

[czmate1999]

Another reply from DVSA re MOTs, they advised to contact the DVLA again with regards to the speed question...

So if you have a fully converted van my take is on it is that you should be good for a Class 4 MOT.

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Thank you for your email enquiry dated 1 November 2019, concerning the above.

There is often confusion between what is tested as a 'Motor Caravan' and what is tested as a 'Living Van'. They are defined as follows;

Motor Caravan
A 'Motor Caravan' has installed equipment and facilities neccesary for the vehicle to provide living accommodation and which only carries goods needed for the purposes of residence in the vehicle (e.g. sufficient food for expected length of holiday, cycles, surfboards etc). They could even carry something like a scooter, if is used for the purpose of residence in the vehicle (the scooter could be used for shopping because of the size of the caravan). Regardless of weight, they would come under Class IV.

Living Vans
These are vehicles used for carrying goods which are NOT needed for the purposes of residence in the motor caravan (e.g. a motor caravan used as a van to carry quantities of goods from one place to another, or a motor caravan which also has an area set aside to carry horses). These vehicles can be tested as Class IV, VII or HGV depending on the Deisgn Gross Weight.

You will need to address your enquiry regarding information on the V5 to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).

The DVLA Email Service can be found here

Telephone: 0300 790 6801 for drivers queries.

0300 790 6802 for vehicle queries.


I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

 

[Ann3x]

Another reply from DVSA re MOTs, they advised to contact the DVLA again with regards to the speed question...

So if you have a fully converted van my take is on it is that you should be good for a Class 4 MOT.

There is often confusion between what is tested as a 'Motor Caravan' and what is tested as a 'Living Van'. They are defined as follows;

Motor Caravan
A 'Motor Caravan' has installed equipment and facilities neccesary for the vehicle to provide living accommodation and which only carries goods needed for the purposes of residence in the vehicle (e.g. sufficient food for expected length of holiday, cycles, surfboards etc). They could even carry something like a scooter, if is used for the purpose of residence in the vehicle (the scooter could be used for shopping because of the size of the caravan). Regardless of weight, they would come under Class IV.

That would imply same for speed and weight then right? In essence, if it meets internal definition of a motor caravan as per above and as per DVLA definition, it is Class IV MOT and car speed limit apply, despite the weight + V5.

This will be a complete nightmare in courts....

 

[czmate1999]

That would imply same for speed and weight then right? In essence, if it meets internal definition of a motor caravan as per above and as per DVLA definition, it is Class IV MOT and car speed limit apply, despite the weight + V5.

This will be a complete nightmare in courts....

yup, which is why I'm pushing them all fun and games...

 

[Rich N]

Keep pushing CZmate until you get a definitive answer! I think the old phrase goes 'If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck' .............hmmmmm.

 

[Phil_G]

Transcript from my DVLA site 'Chat' :

Katie (4:54:50 PM):Hi, you're through to Katie. Please give me a moment to check this for you.
You (4:55:10 PM):Thanks Katie. My query:
You (4:55:12 PM):Regarding the recent rejection of "change to motor caravan" requests following the conversion of a van into a campervan. Speed limits for "Van with windows" differ from those for "Motor Caravan". Since ANPR speed cameras use V5 information to determine the vehicle type and therefore appropriate speed limits, this will lead to many cases of Campervan owners receiving an NIP for speeding, when in fact they were within the "Motor Caravan" limit, caused by the ANPR system receiving inaccurate data - data which has been deliberately and only recently changed by the DVLA. Please could you comment on this observation? Many thanks.

Katie (4:56:09 PM): DVLA’s current policy for motor caravan conversions is that the body type must describe what a vehicle looks like in traffic. If the exterior of the vehicle does not look like a motor home, we will be unable to change the body type. However, vehicle keepers are still able to use the vehicle as a motor home. DVLA will only consider changing the body type to ‘motor caravan’ (motorhome) if the vehicle meets the following three requirements:
1. The body type shown on your V5C Registration Certificate (logbook) is one of those shown in the list below.
Ambulance
Box Van
Goods
Insulated Van
Light Goods
Light Van
Livestock Carrier
Luton Van
Minibus
MPV (Multi-Purpose Vehicle)
Panel Van
Specially Fitted Van
Special Mobile Unit
Van with Side Windows
2. Motor caravan external permanent features.
3. Motor caravan internal features
For more information on external and internal features for motor caravan conversions can be found by searching Motor Home on GOV.UK.

You (4:56:27 PM):The crucial thing is speed limits. Please confirm the speed limits for a van professionally converted to a motor caravan, but which is listed as a "van with windows" on its V5?

Katie (4:57:46 PM):I am sorry, this would not be us to confirm the speed limits as this would be the DVSA's regulations for speed limits not DVLA.

You (4:58:58 PM):Ok just tell me which limit applies in this case, the "Van with windows" limit or the or "Motor Caravan" limit?

Katie (4:59:29 PM):Sorry, as I say I am unable to provide you with this information as this would be the DVSA in regards to this speed limit.

You (4:59:44 PM): DVSA are directing similar queries to yourselves. Its a circular problem that no-one is willing to answer!

Katie (5:00:28 PM):Okay, but we are unable to advise what speed limit applies for a Motor Home as we only deal with the body type of the vehicle and the conversion not the actual speed limit.

You (5:02:09 PM):But you understand that through V5 information, an ANPR camera would identify a perfectly legitimate "motor caravan" as a "Van with windows" and therefore could issue an inappropriate ticket?

Katie (5:02:41 PM):A vehicle would not be identified as a Motor Home Caravan if this does not look like a Motor Home in stand still traffic. If the vehicle does not meet the criteria to be changed to a Motor Home, this would not be identified on the V5C as Motor Home.

You (5:03:37 PM):The ANPR camera identifies it via V5 information, which can now be misleading...

Katie (5:04:07 PM):When you mean misleading?

You (5:04:35 PM):Speed limits for "Van with windows" differ from those for "Motor Caravan". Since ANPR speed cameras use V5 information to determine the vehicle type and therefore appropriate speed limits, this will lead to many cases of Campervan owners receiving an NIP for speeding, when in fact they were within the "Motor Caravan" limit, caused by the ANPR system receiving inaccurate data - data which has been deliberately and only recently changed by the DVLA. The V5 is giving the camera incorrect information.

Katie (5:05:12 PM):Sorry, where have you got the above information from?

You (5:06:48 PM):Campervan owners whose V5 has been 'downgraded' from 'motor caravan' to "Van with windows" by the DVLA and now dont know where they stand with speed limits and ANPR cameras.

Katie (5:07:38 PM):ANPR camera's would be the Police sorry that you would need to contact for further information as we can't advise on this.

You (5:09:36 PM):Katie, I'm sorry but I dont understand how the DVLA can make such a fundamental, far-reaching change to the vehicle's V5, and yet be unable to comment on its effects - especially as to which speed limit now applies

Katie (5:10:04 PM):This would our criteria I am sorry, if the vehicle does not meet the criteria we have in place then the vehicle would not be able to be changed to a Motor Home. As I say, the speed limit would not be our area that we could advise you on. This would be the DVSA and you will need to contact them for further assistance.

You (5:11:41 PM):Ok thank you Katie, I will chase it up with them. Have a pleasant evening... cheers. Phil.

Katie (5:12:12 PM):You're welcome and thank you for your enquiry. If needed, the 'save chat' button will still be available after the chat has ended. Have a lovely day. Goodbye.