Engine battery charging using leisure battery?

[Mattsuze]

Hi All,
due to my limited understanding of electronics, I’m asking for some help!
I have a campervan, professionally converted T6.1 Transporter.
it has a solar panel and leisure battery with the following kit:
Victron units:
ORION TR Smart isolated DC-DC CHARGER next to leisure battery under driver seat (to charge leisure battery while driving?).
SmartSolar charge controller (MPPT 75 1 15) to charge leisure battery from solar panel.
Blue Smart charger ip22 (12 volt, 15amp, 1 output) to charge leisure battery via electric hook up ( I think).
The issue we’ve recently had is the engine battery has gone flat (low enough not to be able to start the engine) after being parked up for just 2 days.
It was a particularly hot, sunny week so solar panel worked a treat, keeping leisure battery charged. but we suspect that because we had the van doors open a lot (including all night) the van sensors were activated and this drained the engine battery (that and opening,closing doors during the day activating central locking).
We got the solar panel to avoid needing hook up But this seems to be useless if our engine battery is going to go flat!
does anyone know if the Orion tr charger can be set up (on Victron Connect or wired differently) so that it trickle charges the engine battery?
Or can anyone recommend another bit of kit that would be needed to do this. With my limited knowledge, I can only think of plugging an inverter into the leisure battery powered 12v cigarette socket in the back, plugging a car battery charger into the inverter, then connecting this via crocodile clips to the engine battery. This seems a ridiculous solution to me and would need wires feeding into the bonnet every time we park up so I hope there is a better solution than this.
would welcome any advice that could help.
thanks.
Matt

 

[Loz]

you could swap the solar charger for a dual output one or wire a battery isolator switch to join the two battery sets together when you are camping (although you have to remember to open the switch before you cranked the engine over unless your cables are large enough)

 

[Deaky]

I use a simple trickle charger, connected to the load output of the Victron MTTP and the starter battery. This will keep the starter topped up when sunny. You can set the parameters of when the load output turns on in the Victron App. Really useful, we have electric doors and boot and I was worried constant use while camping might flatten the battery. I've never had such issue.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VOTRONIC-Votronic-Standby-Charger-12-V/dp/B01MCRV17U/ref=asc_df_B01MCRV17U/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=534732308385&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=202936994963899621&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045481&hvtargid=pla-789456830144&psc=1

 

[evans1089]

Was anything turned on whilst parked up for those two days? Fridge?

 

[Mattsuze]

I use a simple trickle charger, connected to the load output of the Victron MTTP and the starter battery. This will keep the starter topped up when sunny. You can set the parameters of when the load output turns on in the Victron App. Really useful, we have electric doors and boot and I was worried constant use while camping might flatten the battery. I've never had such issue.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VOTRONIC-Votronic-Standby-Charger-12-V/dp/B01MCRV17U/ref=asc_df_B01MCRV17U/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=534732308385&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=202936994963899621&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045481&hvtargid=pla-789456830144&psc=1

This is the route I’ve been looking down as it seems fairly straight forward and not inexpensive.
We’d gone a year or so with camping, opening, shutting doors, boot with no problem. Just the last 2-3 trips a low battery warning has appeared on the dash when going to start the engine. Started ok each time (although slightly sluggish turning over), until last week (but there was some excessive door opening going on!). Starter battery still pretty healthy according to my multimeter and I want to keep it that way!
Is it very simple to wire in a voltronic standby charger and what settings would you use in Victron connect?
Thanks for your help

Was anything turned on whilst parked up for those two days? Fridge?

Yes, fridge and lights, all running off the leisure battery which seemed to cope well. None of these should have drawn power from the starter battery though and I think it was just the door opening/closing that drained the starter battery.

 

[Dellmassive]

Look at adding an AMT12 which will trickle charge the starter from the solar charged leisure battery.

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It --

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It -- Right so its that time of year again . . . . . . . . Winter & (Lockdown 2020) The van might be layed up not being used, which will lead to a flat battery in around 3 weeks. The cold weather doesn't help the battery's...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[Deaky]

This is the route I’ve been looking down as it seems fairly straight forward and not inexpensive.
We’d gone a year or so with camping, opening, shutting doors, boot with no problem. Just the last 2-3 trips a low battery warning has appeared on the dash when going to start the engine. Started ok each time (although slightly sluggish turning over), until last week (but there was some excessive door opening going on!). Starter battery still pretty healthy according to my multimeter and I want to keep it that way!
Is it very simple to wire in a voltronic standby charger and what settings would you use in Victron connect?
Thanks for your help

Dead simple. Wire from load output to "I BOARD" and a wire from "II START" to your starter battery (or the starter connection at your Orion) Set the voltage you want the load to turn on and off in the app and it just works automatically.

 

[Mattsuze]

Look at adding an AMT12 which will trickle charge the starter from the solar charged leisure battery.

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It --

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It -- Right so its that time of year again . . . . . . . . Winter & (Lockdown 2020) The van might be layed up not being used, which will lead to a flat battery in around 3 weeks. The cold weather doesn't help the battery's...

www.t6forum.com

.

Looks like just the thing I’d need - i assume it would be compatible with Victron (if that’s even something that needs to be considered). Would the AMT12 sit under the bonnet close to the starter battery or better placed in the vehicle Easter to the Victron and leisure battery?

 

[Oceanis]

I have solved this problem by using a Victron Argofet 100-2.

It charges both the starter and leisure batteries in my van while keeping the two battery banks completely isolated from each other. There are many possible solutions, but this one works for me.

Diagram looks like this ...



Victron Argofet installation under the passenger seat ...

 

[Dellmassive]

Looks like just the thing I’d need - i assume it would be compatible with Victron (if that’s even something that needs to be considered). Would the AMT12 sit under the bonnet close to the starter battery or better placed in the vehicle Easter to the Victron and leisure battery?

Yes. I use it with my Victron kit.

Mines under seat next to LB.

There are numerous ways of doing this...

@Deaky option needs sun to work... But a cheaper option.

The Victron battery combiner is nice unit, but might be overkill for single lb setup.

You can also just add a second 5A charger to your EHU for the starter..... But again you need EHU for it to operate.

 

[Deaky]

Yes. I use it with my Victron kit.

Mines under seat next to LB.

There are numerous ways of doing this...

@Deaky option needs sun to work... But a cheaper option.

The Victron battery combiner is nice unit, but might be overkill for single lb setup.

You can also just add a second 5A charger to your EHU for the starter..... But again you need EHU for it to operate.

Yes, my option will only work if it's sunny AND my leisure battery is 90% full (you can change this setting) otherwise the trickle charger is turned off.

 

[Rioja John]

This is what I fitted, £34 plus postage from CAK Tanks Kenilworth.
John.

What Have You Bought Today?

Koni’s, H&R ARB’s. All being fitted tomorrow by @The Van Cave Seeing just the lower half of the photo it looks like it's been taken inside a grass hut on a tropical beach...

www.t6forum.com

 

[Oceanis]

Not sure I would use a Victron Cyrix battery combiner in a van with start/stop logic and solar charging - but it depends on cable sizes.

The Cyrix combiner will combine the batteries when it detects a charging voltage on either side of the unit, and will keep them connected when the engine automatically stops and a solar charge is present.

The next automatic start will then be from both starter and leisure batteries combined - it is essential that the correct cable sizes have been used to allow starting the engine from the leisure batteries alone.

The Victron Cyrix was conceived for marine use, where the leisure batteries are a backup to start the engine should the starter battery fail - the device even has a switch connection to force a battery connect for 30s to enable starting the engine from the leisure batteries. The assumption is that the leisure battery bank has been wired to cope with the starter current running from the leisure batteries through the battery combiner to the starter.

 

[Bigsidavies]

Here’s in idea that may or may not be feasible. I await @Dellmassive input.
The Victron blue smart charger has a quick connector plug in the wiring that runs to the leisure battery. You can buy an extension lead and battery connection lead (genuine Victron).
My blue smart actually came with 2 quick connect leads:- one eyelet and one croc clips.
While on hookup you could just swap leads at the quick connect and the blue smart will give your starter battery a full charge.
I’ve fitted my blue smart so the quick connect plug is accessible at the front of the driver’s seat for just this scenario, but the starter problem never arose so I’ve not tested my idea.

2m Extension Cable For Victron Blue Smart IP65 Charger

2m accessory extension cable for Victron Blue Smart IP65 chargers. Other accessories available.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

 

[Dellmassive]

Here’s in idea that may or may not be feasible. I await @Dellmassive input.
The Victron blue smart charger has a quick connector plug in the wiring that runs to the leisure battery. You can buy an extension lead and battery connection lead (genuine Victron).
My blue smart actually came with 2 quick connect leads:- one eyelet and one croc clips.
While on hookup you could just swap leads at the quick connect and the blue smart will give your starter battery a full charge.
I’ve fitted my blue smart so the quick connect plug is accessible at the front of the driver’s seat for just this scenario, but the starter problem never arose so I’ve not tested my idea.

2m Extension Cable For Victron Blue Smart IP65 Charger

2m accessory extension cable for Victron Blue Smart IP65 chargers. Other accessories available.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

Yes, that will work.

Provided you are on EHU.

And have monitoring to see what state the batterys are in.


...



( The op mentioned about flat after 2days and solar done well on LB....so we're assuming no EHU available)

 

[Oceanis]

Here’s in idea that may or may not be feasible. I await @Dellmassive input.
The Victron blue smart charger has a quick connector plug in the wiring that runs to the leisure battery. You can buy an extension lead and battery connection lead (genuine Victron).
My blue smart actually came with 2 quick connect leads:- one eyelet and one croc clips.
While on hookup you could just swap leads at the quick connect and the blue smart will give your starter battery a full charge.
I’ve fitted my blue smart so the quick connect plug is accessible at the front of the driver’s seat for just this scenario, but the starter problem never arose so I’ve not tested my idea.

2m Extension Cable For Victron Blue Smart IP65 Charger

2m accessory extension cable for Victron Blue Smart IP65 chargers. Other accessories available.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

I have a Blue Smart 12-5 charger connected to my Motorbike and had exactly the same thought.

Run a quick connector into the van interior and then plug the Blue Smart into the inverter to charge the starter battery. I even tried it out and it worked no problems.

Once the starter battery was fully charged it was drawing about 5W from the inverter - @ 5A, 14.4V it would draw around 70-80W.

Not the most efficient way to do it due to the multiple voltage conversions, but it works and keeps the battery banks isolated from each other.

 

[Mattsuze]

Yes, that will work.

Provided you are on EHU.

And have monitoring to see what state the batterys are in.


...



( The op mentioned about flat after 2days and solar done well on LB....so we're assuming no EHU available)

Yes, leisure battery doing well, just the starter battery that doesn’t receive any charge when sitting static. Trying to avoid any reliance on EHU.

 

[Dellmassive]

Yes, leisure battery doing well, just the starter battery that doesn’t receive any charge when sitting static. Trying to avoid any reliance on EHU.

Yeh, same as us.

We always choose off-grid.


But the starter will go flat... without fitting a trickle charger.

Many good options above.

But for us the AMT12 was a no brainer.

We have the Roamer 230sb lifepo4, so have 230ah lb to play with... More than enough to keep the starter topped up every day.

When camping we use 200-400w solar.

And when driving we use 50A DC-DC charger.

 

[Dellmassive]

Fyiw...

Here is the BM2 plots for the starter and leisure battery.

Over 1, 7, 15 days.

..


..

 

[evans1089]

Any diagrams of how the AMT12 would wire up to Starter battery, with wires from LB.
Trying to work out myself how I'd get a cable through into the engine bay now a conversion is already carried out.