310W permanent solar on a 22MY T6.1 Ocean

[Oceanis]

Very valid points. We use our van for extended skiing trips to the Alps in winter & a couple of months touring Europe in early summer, then September/ October touring the UK, so we spend a good 4-5 months a year in the van in very varied conditions. You obviously have differing needs & requirements to us, which is fair enough, but I can't help thinking that you are overcomplicating what should be a simple installation. Maybe it's because you are trying to utilise legacy equipment from the Ocean.
You asked for comments & observations, my main offering is keep it simple. Trying to fault find electrical issues in the tiny confines of a packed campervan isn't fun. Forget the isolation relays/argofets etc. Stick a couple of good quality panels on the roof, a suitable Victron MPPT, however much Lithium capacity you think you need, and a maintainer for the starter. Job done.
That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

One of my main aims is to integrate with the VW Oceans existing equipment (charger, CCU etc.) hopefully without interfering with the VW control of the battery isolation relay, my real problem is I want to charge both the leisure and starter batteries from one solar controller - hence the argofet/relay combination - it charges both leisure and starter with ignition off, charges leisure only with ignition on and VW isolation relay open.

If I dropped the argofet/relay and connected my solar directly to both leisure and starter batteries I would permanently bridge the VW battery isolation relay with my charging circuit, during starting it would risk the wiring on the charger side being used to supply some starter current from the leisure batteries - and that would instantly blow my charging fuses.

If I just charge the leisure side, then the starter battery will discharge over time while parked - VW isolation relay open - and I don't want this.

I could bridge the VW isolation relay with something capable of transferring starter currents, like a Victron Cyrix battery combiner and just connect the solar to the leisure batteries - I did this on my boat and it worked fantastically - but it would also bridge the VW isolation relay and depending on how much intelligence VW have built into their fault detection may result in fault codes.

It would be sooooo much easier if it were an aftermarket conversion where all the camper equipment could be totally isolated from the rest of the vehicle electrics/electronics. The integrated VW stuff and the CCU are both a blessing and a curse - especially when it comes to modifications.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Why can’t you just connect the solar to the LB & have a maintainer from the LB to starter battery?

 

[AussieMick]

For what its worth I don't have anything charging my starter battery when on the road except for my altenator when driving.
When parked I hardly use any power from the starter battery but as many have said we all use our vans differently and have different requirements.

 

[Oceanis]

For what its worth I don't have anything charging my starter battery when on the road except for my altenator when driving.
When parked I hardly use any power from the starter battery but as many have said we all use our vans differently and have different requirements.

My problem with the Ocean - and the reason I want solar for the starter battery - is the entertainment system (I like to use Android Auto and Spotify while stationary) - everything forward of the b-pillars runs off the starter battery AFAIK.

 

[Oceanis]

Why can’t you just connect the solar to the LB & have a maintainer from the LB to starter battery?

Would be another option ... I would like to be able to turn it off automatically when the VW isolation relay closes (e.g. when plugged in to land power) ... and have it off when the smart alternator is running.

 

[Oceanis]

@Oceanis

have a look at some of the setups . . .

Diagrams, Schematics & Wires -- How I Done It --

Diagrams, Schematics & Wires -- How I Done It -- ************************************************** Dellmassive`s -- "how I Done It" -- Thread ************************************************** Kit List And Stuff -- How I Done It & What I Use --...

www.t6forum.com

View attachment 154309

You have a mine of useful info and excellent posts, been trawling through them all ..... thanks!

 

[Oceanis]

So .... I`ve got all the parts (almost) and am going with this ... I know it is unconventional, but as some probably famous person said ... "only dead fish go with the flow"



The main benefit to me is:

When off-grid, all the solar charge current (maxing out at 20-28A dependent on temp.) is available to split between all 3 batteries - and that means all vehicle systems including the entertainment system, the sliding-door motor, the boot motor, the central locking, and all the other things that get powered on whenever you unlock the van or operate something forward of the b-pillars - eg. infotainment system.

If the van is parked an not used, then a 1A trickle charge would be fine for the starter battery, but if parked and used I don't think it will be enough to keep the starter battery charged long-term.

 

[Salty Spuds]

My problem with the Ocean - and the reason I want solar for the starter battery - is the entertainment system (I like to use Android Auto and Spotify while stationary) - everything forward of the b-pillars runs off the starter battery AFAIK.

Get yourself a Bose mini soundlink or similar quality Bluetooth speaker. You’ll get better quality sounds than the “ICE”, you won’t upset the neighbours, and it’s KISS.

 

[Oceanis]

Get yourself a Bose mini soundlink or similar quality Bluetooth speaker. You’ll get better quality sounds than the “ICE”, you won’t upset the neighbours, and it’s KISS.

I have a good Bluetooth speaker, it needs to be stored and charged and ends up sitting on top of the kitchen unit with cables going to the USB ports. Then it gets moved when we need to access the fridge, cooker or sink.
On the dashboard it gets fried in the sunshine ... it usually gets left at home .... I guess I could permanently fix it somewhere ...
... and its not brilliant to use as a hands-free system for home-office because the mic is in the phone. The VW head unit does this loads better (I don't like using earbuds).

 

[Andysmee]

My problem with the Ocean - and the reason I want solar for the starter battery - is the entertainment system (I like to use Android Auto and Spotify while stationary) - everything forward of the b-pillars runs off the starter battery AFAIK.

Is the BCM setup differently on the Ocean then, to allow the radio to stay on for longer? Or does it detect the battery voltage like others and you're hoping it will work by charging it as you use it?

 

[Oceanis]

Is the BCM setup differently on the Ocean then, to allow the radio to stay on for longer? Or does it detect the battery voltage like others and you're hoping it will work by charging it as you use it?

Not got that far yet .... the standard solution in VW/BMW/Daimler etc. is to allocate a power budget to the entertainment system which allows it to remain switched on for a set time after ignition off (entertainment mode).

In the BCM there is an "Energiebordnetzsystem" which manages the status of all the vehicle systems. The essential systems to allow the vehicle to wake up, or which are safety related (like the hazard lights) are hard wired to KL30 - main battery +12v - the non-essential systems are wired to switched power - called KL30F - which is switched off when the energy management system decides an engine start is in jeopardy. KL30F is for all intents and purposes the same as KL30 - permanently live - unless there is a low-battery condition.

The entertainment system usually hangs on KL30F, and is pretty power hungry. When the vehicle shuts down (usually after all doors are closed and locked, or after a timeout) - then a request to shutdown is made over the vehicle bus. All the devices not needed when the vehicle is parked then acknowledge and shutdown.

The entertainment system can request a "shutdown suspend" which allows it to remain on for a set time even after ignition key is switched off ... this can be extended by the user interacting with it (annoying) and it then sends another "shutdown suspend" request to the energie management system - when the vehicle goes into energy saving mode because an engine start is in jeopardy then it shuts off all devices connected to KL30F by removing power - this is because a faulty device can stay awake and consume power, ignoring the network messages to shutdown.

I am hoping that charging will keep the entertainment system "alive" as home office is one of my requirements. I suspect it won't as the basic electrical system is a standard VW transporter - from the wiring diagrams, the camper equipment is a pretty complex add-on. What I don't know is how the BCM software differs between a Transporter and a Beach/Ocean - if the VW developers have considered use of the entertainment system while hooked-up to be a worthwhile use-case - then all should be good, if not, then I get the standard Transporter logic and can switch on the entertainment system with ignition off, but have to keep responding to shutdown prompts or turn ignition on.

Got some testing to do to find out which it is. .....

 

[Andysmee]

Let me hook you up with two forum members who will help you on your journey @Robert and @mmi , together with solar guru @Dellmassive

 

[Dellmassive]

I believe the standard Media center shutdown on a T6 is 30mins.

This can be extended with the media center control WiFi app... I think @Deaky had this setup a while back?

Not sure on what difference the T6.1 setup may have... Or any ocean specific programming.


....


It's an easy test tho, just turn off the ignition and turn on the radio........ See how long it runs for.

Then repeat the test with a small to medium load running..... To see if the off time talies, or follows voltage drop, battery drain.

 

[Oceanis]

Quick update ... after much faffing I've finally got round to building my Solar Panel for the summer holls. Spent ages working out how best to wire the panels and decided on series as it adds the voltages but keeps the current constant. There are two advantages to this .... first is that lower current means less loss in the wires, and second, you see instantly if one of the panels fails or is intermittent as the voltage halves and this shows up in the victron history too. The shading advantages of parallel are not that great when you already have an oversized array. Anyway those were my reasons.

Solar roof panel looks like this .... glued down and sealed with sikaflex.



.. and the panels are connected in series inside the glued heat shrink ... there is also a XT60H connector in there (a 60A connector from RC vehicle batteries) so I can disconnect and remove the panel if needed.

 

[Oceanis]

Installed ...

... and functioning as intended.

 

[Oceanis]

That’s well smart, I have a Beach and couldn’t find a decent solar panel and for it to go through the roof panel. Who’s solar panel system is that?

It's a Hess Campers 320W aluminium panel, 2 x Phaesun Mare Flex 155 Solar panels and a Victron Smartsolar MPPT 100/30.

 

[Oceanis]

Now completed "Phase 2" of my installation and for Victron fans, I can confirm that a correctly configured Victron Argofet does indeed enable simultaneous charging of starter and leisure batteries. Installation looks like this ...

 

[Oceanis]

Update on the use of an Argofet to split the solar charge between the starter battery and the leisure batteries. It doesn’t work, or to be more accurate, it works if you never drive anywhere.

Seriously, don’t do this on your van – fit a trickle charger to charge the starter.

I could not understand why I was getting a massive daily yield and poor leisure battery performance from the solar while driving on sunny days, but I think I’ve figured it out.

The Argofet splits the charge between the two battery banks, and the bank with the highest load will draw the most power – great if you want all batteries at 100% SOC quickly, but it is actually a problem in a T6.1.

What exactly do I think is happening ….

The smart alternator/recuperation logic is trying to regulate the starter battery to around 80% SOC, so it can run its recuperation strategies. When the SOC is above 80%, the smart alternator turns off and all the vehicle electronics run from the battery to bring down the SOC. In my case, when this is happening, the solar is responding to the load on the starter battery and the MPPT controller is pumping out as much energy as possible, most of which is going to the vehicle electronics and not the leisure batteries. The alternator is as good as off, trying to get the starter down to 80%, and it isn’t charging the leisure batteries either - unless I switch Max Charge on.

The upshot is that if I leave the van sitting on a sunny day, everything ends up 100% charged and all is good. As soon as I start driving, the recuperation logic tries to run the starter battery back down to 80% while the solar fights to keep it at 100% … I get a situation where the solar is pumping around 11A constantly into the system while the smart alternator is effectively taking the day off. I end up producing a daily yield of around 0.9 kWh, most of which has been used to run the vehicle electrics instead of charge batteries.

This is obviously not working as I intended.

The same will be happening to a much lesser degree with vans fitted with starter trickle chargers, but the effect will be very much reduced as the current produced by a trickle charger is relatively low – but it will still make any solar installation less efficient on a van with recuperation and start/stop.

I’m now looking at putting a switch on the charge line to the starter battery which I will only close when I park up the van for a long period of time.

 

[Oceanis]

After much deliberation I am putting a switch on the starter side of the charging circuit so the system now looks like this.

I considered a normally closed relay which cuts the connection on engine start, but due to the 80% SOC target on the starter battery and the smart alternator this means the MPPT will use energy to charge the starter back up to 100%, just to have 20% thrown away on the next drive - because a trickle charger doesn't charge as quickly, the effect will be unnoticeable, with the solar just wasting an amp or so while driving.

Compared to a trickle charger the advantage is that it can put more energy into the starter when it is active, and when switched off, none of the solar energy is being wasted fighting the smart alternator and recuperation strategy.

... the disadvantage is that it has to be manually switched on and off and the solution is more expensive than a trickle charger.

 

[Oceanis]

Finally finished the solar system .... what would I do differently next time?

1. The Hess Panel and the solar array stuck down with Sikaflex has been faultless. It has added virtually nothing to the height of the van which was very important to me (as well as surviving car washes) - so I'd do the same again. 310W seems to be a bit of overkill for our use-cases - just run the VW fridge, LED lights, Laptop, Camera, Drone and other USB device charging ... but it means I've got a bit in reserve once I've sorted out Lithium batteries and an Inverter.



2. The scanstrut through roof connection is watertight but I would mount it a little bit further back next time - the headlining in the pop-top is glued to the roof with a 1cm foam sandwich ... routing the wire was not easy.



3. Not sure a Victron Smart MPPT 100/30 was the right choice ... I might have been better off with a 100/20 with its load output (See point 4) and I'd connect a starter trickle charger to the load output.



4. The Argofet was a mistake, I did not fully understand the strategy VW uses for recuperation and the behaviour of the smart alternator. I had not anticipated that the smart alternator would turn off when the solar is generating lots of amps. Interestingly on the German site which is advertising a fully integrated Lithium solution for a VW T6.1 (with re-programming of the CU) they made some interesting comments (in German) about the VW system in the latest vans. Apparently it keeps all 3 batteries at around 90% charge, and before you intend to camp, you should turn on "Max Charge" to get them (all 3) to 100%. The "Max Charge" function will end when the batteries get to 100% or the next ignition cycle. This makes sense because by using "Max Charge" you are turning off recuperation and start/stop and raising the idle speed, which affects CO2 and fuel consumption. I solved the problem with a switch that enables starter battery charging from solar if I leave the van sitting for a while, but it is not the fully automatic system I envisaged.