LifePo4-Request for advice about cell balancing?

Samro

Senior Member
VIP Member
T6 Legend
I'm aware that this post is a bit wordy, so I have highlighted my queries in bold to save those that are easily bored! :)

Back in 2020 I ordered my new T6.1 and I impatiently purchased all sorts of components and planned what I considered to be the ultimate set-up for my off-grid machine.

Whilst the "Order Delays" thread grew and grew, I ended up with shed loads of kit including a 200Ah (Gen1) Roamer Battery, which sat for 15 months before it eventually got installed in my new van in March 2022.

The battery had sat for 15 months and like an idiot I didn't charge it at any time during this period. I consequently found that the cell overvoltage warning was triggering once I got around to installing this in the vehicle. Here is a screenshot from the summer showing the overvoltage issue :
415d1cc1-8d99-4e55-97d9-6c25b3150619-png.167820


I spoke to the helpful guys at Roamer and they got me to tweak seem BMS settings and told me to reduce the absorption voltage to 13.9V and then "creep it back to 14.2 volts over the coming months, once the BMS stopped triggering overvoltage warnings. They were helpful as they could be and advised me that a cell delta of up to 0.3V is fine.

Whilst mucking about with this battery, I noted that the capacity of the battery was set at 180Ah on the BMS. (This was as it was configured when it was delivered, so I assumed that this would be correct.) I always had my Victron Smart shunt set as 200Ah capacity and the "% charge" info from the Victron was always more reliable than the figure viewed on the BMS. I therefore changed the setting within the BMS to the 200Ah figure.

Since changing the BMS's Battery Capacity to 200Ah I have had consistently reliable results from both the BMS and the Smartshunt in terms of "% charge", but, I set the "Total Cycle Capacity" to be the same as the "Total Battery Capacity" - Not sure of this is right, so if anyone can confirm that would be useful?

So....... back to the cell balancing topic; It has taken me ages to get to a point where I have got the battery to reach the end of its absorption without triggering the overvoltage warning. This can be seen below:
bms.png

Roamer have confirmed that my Delta figure of 0.269V is within spec, as it is less that 0.3V (Shown in the above picture as 0.269). I consequently don't want to bother them with my queries, as the battery is operating within the parameters that they have defined.

This is an expensive battery and I'd like it to last as long as possible. The battery has currently cycled 38 times and I was hoping that the maximum Delta figure would come down to the 0.15V as per the "Delta to balance" shown below.

BMS2.png

It seems that the cells will never, ever truly get balanced and that cell 3 will be weaker than cells 1, 2 & 4.

  1. Is that normal to have weak cells?
  2. Are the cells likely to get balanced eventually?
  3. How long would you expect them to fall in line with the other 3 cells? (as in number of charge cycles.....It has currently been 38!)
  4. Should I creep the absorption voltage a little higher than 14.2V (Say 14.4V, over the next ten charges or so) and then reduce this figure back to 14.2V in the future, in an attempt to get the cells more closely balanced at 14.2 Volts?
  5. Should I try something else to reduce teh Delta figure?
 
Nice post.....

That battery contains the JBD BMS....


jbd-sp04s020-l4s-120A-b-u


See the features list over here:


They state the BMS balance current is only 50mA.... And might not be enough.

Some stand alone active balance chargers could use up to 2A balance current.


...

Screenshot_20221228_175239_Chrome~2.jpg


....

Roamer use grade A cells....



So I'm thinking just let the cells top Ballance to 14.2v.

Fwiw I've got a Gen2 battery and always see the cell over voltage alarms......but it's nothing to worry about as the BMS just shut off that cell and deals with it.

Infact you will see the same with all battery's.... I had the same with Renogy and Poweroad.

I offered them the advice that in their app they should remove the "cov alarm " as it was causing end users to worry...... It would come up with a red warning triangle.

They've now changed it to remove the warning.


......

But really nothing to worry about if the cells are within 0.3v delta.


I'll grab some screenshots of my batteries as a reference later.
 
Another option is to get a seperate active balancer.



You could manually Ballance yourself then if and when needed.

I've got one like this that can be used on 4 cell packs.

You would need to make up a 4s extension lead.... But I'd imagine it work.









Screenshot_20221228_180723_Amazon Shopping.jpg
 
Nice post.....

That battery contains the JBD BMS....


jbd-sp04s020-l4s-120A-b-u


See the features list over here:


They state the BMS balance current is only 50mA.... And might not be enough.

Some stand alone active balance chargers could use up to 2A balance current.


...

View attachment 183289


....

Roamer use grade A cells....



So I'm thinking just let the cells top Ballance to 14.2v.

Fwiw I've got a Gen2 battery and always see the cell over voltage alarms......but it's nothing to worry about as the BMS just shut off that cell and deals with it.

Infact you will see the same with all battery's.... I had the same with Renogy and Poweroad.

I offered them the advice that in their app they should remove the "cov alarm " as it was causing end users to worry...... It would come up with a red warning triangle.

They've now changed it to remove the warning.


......

But really nothing to worry about if the cells are within 0.3v delta.


I'll grab some screenshots of my batteries as a reference later.
Thanks for this.
During the "creeping up of the absorption voltage", I noted that the rate of charge seemed to determine wether or not the over voltage alarm triggered.
I've consequently been capping the charge rate at a max of 30A until now. I will leave the absorption voltage at 14.2V and it will be interesting to see if I have issues when the sun comes out in the summer, as I have 400W of solar and I could potentially get over 60A of charge when both DC-DC and running at full chat!
 
Does this not involve removing the cells from the battery case?
It involves opening that case to get to the cell Ballance lead.... Fitting and extension lead and plugging into the external Ballance charger.


If that's a bit deep.......




,.......

With my battery's.....

All I do is limit the charge current so say 10A or 20A and allow to charge slower to get full absorption.

One of the benefits of the Renogy dc charger is you can set the charger Amp rate...ie 20A.

And also set the 14.2v limit ..


So when I need a fast charge I use 14.6v and expect to see COV alarms during charging.

Then normally I drop the charger rate to say 20A and drop the charger voltage to 14.2v or 14.1v.



#####

It's also worth noting that the Gen2 battery does not have cell ballancing.... So the gen2 batterys.rely on top balance for trim.


#######

Roamer have bought active cell ballancing back with the Gen3 battery.
 
Battery at rest after sleeping...... So cells are expected to be equal

Poweroad #1

20221228_185701.jpgScreenshot_20221228_185725_Poweroad.jpgScreenshot_20221228_185734_Poweroad.jpg
 
Again at rest........

Roamer gen2 230sb.

Screenshot_20221228_190930_Roamer BMS.jpgScreenshot_20221228_190952_Roamer BMS.jpg
 
Thanks fir this @Dellmassive.

If that's a bit deep.......
Yep!

All I do is limit the charge current so say 10A or 20A and allow to charge slower to get full absorption.

One of the benefits of the Renogy dc charger is you can set the charger Amp rate...ie 20A.
I have full control of the charge current of the MPPT and Multiplus from my Cerbo GX.
E4445E0C-724B-4E12-8647-23B38475CD37.pngThis works brilliantly as the combined current is accounted for. (It is a shame that Victron didn't have the foresight to include a VE port on the DC-DC, as this would be useful, but there we are!)

And also set the 14.2v limit ..

I have never been able to suss out how to do this on the Cerbo. The setting is there but it doesn't work!
Turning on limit "Charge Voltage" doesn't work for me:
5C834FAC-555D-4939-BDE3-77472FDA9159.jpeg

Any ideas @Raul a/3?

What I currently do is configure the absorption voltage using by downloading the Remote VEconfigure file from the Multi. I then use VEConfigure3 to change the voltage before uploading it to the multi again! It would be a significant improvement if I could make the Voltage Limiter work on the GX device!

I reckon that there is a setting on VEConfigure3 that would allow the GX to take control of voltage limits, but I can't find it. Any help would be much appreciated.
 
Again at rest........

Roamer gen2 230sb.

View attachment 183298View attachment 183299
In fairness to my Roamer battery, the cells settle at rest with no remarkable differences in voltage. Given your comments, I think that I may be looking to fix a problem that doesn't exist! (It would just be nice to have the cells behave perfectly, but realistically I can't see that happening!)
I am now keen for my voltage limiter to work!
 
Got a pic here of the setup.

Or list.

Or quick sketch of the charge kit and how it's linked?

We'll have a look.?
 
Yes, possibly.

The cells will drift slightly when charging and discharging....... That's normal due to manufacture tolerance and internal resistance etc.

As long as they settle your fine.

If they drift to much before being fully charged, just reduce the charge current and or voltage to allow the pack more time to fully absorb.

And don't worry about any COV warnings. As that's normal when charging.


I'll put a charger on the batterys above and grab some screenshots when charging with a 30A charger.
 
so charge sources are:

30A Orion DC-DC
30A MPPT
30A Multi?

1672311543224.png
 
The above photo won't mean much as the cabling is difficult to trace in the photo.

It is better to list what is shown:
Multiplus 12-1200
SmartShunt
MPPT 100/30
GPS (USB TI Cerbo)
Cerbo GX

All above are on VE networked to GX device with genuine Victron Cabling.

Then there's the other stuff:
Mains distribution and protection.
DC-DC 12/30
Battery Protect
Master switch.
Numerous Bluesea Breakers, midi fuses and fused distribution to heater, USB's, fridge & lighting.)
Master Bluesea bus bars for high loads.
4x100w of solar (Not pictured)
Hawawai 4G Router (Not pictured)
Garmin parking camera feed (From LB)
Ignition switched direct cooling fan for DC-DC charger.
The large relay is for the water heater feed and large cooling fan. (Not pictured) This relay is triggered by a feed from ignition, so that a big cooling fan and water heater are on when the ignition is on. There is additional control to this in that the feed is also switched from relay 1 from the GX. I have set this so that the water heater power is cut when the LB is more than 90% charged and switched back on when more than 100% charged. (I keep meaning to change this arrangement to allow the water heater to bypass the ignition feed during very sunny summer periods)
Sorry........ Being very boring now!
 
are all the charge profiles set separately in each charge source?
 
looking at the DEMO settings:

ORION:

14.2v @30A

1672311835902.png
 
MPPT 100/30

14.2v @30A (lifepo4 profile)

1672311976129.png


but max charge amps can be adjusted:

1672311996813.png
 
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