Split-Chargers & Bluemotion
- Thread starter superflyguy
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irishwales
Member
how are you boys getting on with euro 6 T6 and the durite VSR i keep hearing posts about them working fine, can you confirm this
You absolutely CANNOT use a VSR on a van fitted fitted with an intelligent alternator if you want to charge your aux battery properly. End of story. Anybody that says you can is deluded. However, you don't need to spend £600 to get the correct kit either!!!
The CTEK Dual is one of them, although this model is proving to be someway problematical in terms of installing it. I would go for the Ripca eLogic EL1225, straightforward to fit and extremely efficient.
travelvolts.com - Split charge systems
The kit that Xtreme vans sell is probably more suited to a T4 than a T6!!!!
The following information may help you to understand why relay charging will not be any good on these vans.
The initiative behind the introduction of smart alternators / regenerative braking is to lower CO2 emissions and to improve miles per gallon / KM per litre for EU regulations. These smart alternators are installed on modern European Vehicles (Euro 5, Euro 6 + and newer engine models). The object of this new system is to utilise a vehicles wasted kinetic energy during braking / deceleration cycles experienced in every day motoring and rapidly convert as much of that energy (which is usually wasted as braking heat) into useful electricity and store this energy in the starter battery. Then, during acceleration and cruising release this energy back into the vehicles running system as “free electrical energy“ thus reducing the time where an alternator loads the main engine. This increases MPG/KPLand lowers CO2 emissions. However, in order for this system to be effective, the starter battery must have ‘free space’ to boost the energy into the battery, this requires the battery to be about 20% depleted (low enough to allow more power to be boosted into it but not too low as to prevent the engine from restarting when switched off). To replenish this ‘free space’, during deceleration or braking events, the voltage on the alternator shoots up to approximately 15V+. This higher voltage fast charges the starter battery to replenish its capacity. As you are using the inertia of the vehicle to charge the battery, rather than fuel, it is seen as ‘free energy’. Then the voltage drops to about 12.4V to allow the free energy to be consumed by the vehicle allowing the battery to deplete itself by about 20% ready for the next speed reduction and so on and so forth. Albeit an improvement in terms of emissions, there are knock on effects regarding the auxiliary charging systems on board commercial vehicles, read on: Problems with Smart Alternator / Regenerative Braking The system requires a 20% empty starter battery for the system to work. It needs the space to “dump” the fast energy build up during braking. This is in direct conflict with the auxiliary charging system requirements, why? 1) No charge going into the batteries during the 12.2-12.4V phase (which is totally by primary system design). Therefore, if a simple relay charging system was used to charge the auxiliary system it would not be charged during this time frame. This will be a problem if you require a charged auxiliary battery during travel or at location to location. 2) Very high battery charge rate during vehicle deceleration / braking due to alternator high voltage. This is relatively problem free for the starter battery as its relatively full. However, a large empty auxiliary bank could experience high currents at high voltages (much higher than their recommended level) which would be detrimental to the battery leading to premature destruction. Problem with using voltage sensitive/controlled relays? 1) Most VSR / VCRs have time delays before activating. 2) Even when the relay engages then at low voltages the batteries do not charge but at high voltage the aux batteries will get damaged due to massive current in rushes. Also remember that the inherent software control system prevents the battery from being over 80% charged, so even when the battery is charging it will prematurely stop charging due to the software limitations which must leave that 20% space for the unit to be able to dump the braking power, so you can never fully charge a battery using a relay or fet controller you must use an active power product like the CTEK Dual, Ripca EL1225 or Sterling BB1230. (other products are available and prices vary hugely)
The CTEK Dual is one of them, although this model is proving to be someway problematical in terms of installing it. I would go for the Ripca eLogic EL1225, straightforward to fit and extremely efficient.
travelvolts.com - Split charge systems
The kit that Xtreme vans sell is probably more suited to a T4 than a T6!!!!
The following information may help you to understand why relay charging will not be any good on these vans.
The initiative behind the introduction of smart alternators / regenerative braking is to lower CO2 emissions and to improve miles per gallon / KM per litre for EU regulations. These smart alternators are installed on modern European Vehicles (Euro 5, Euro 6 + and newer engine models). The object of this new system is to utilise a vehicles wasted kinetic energy during braking / deceleration cycles experienced in every day motoring and rapidly convert as much of that energy (which is usually wasted as braking heat) into useful electricity and store this energy in the starter battery. Then, during acceleration and cruising release this energy back into the vehicles running system as “free electrical energy“ thus reducing the time where an alternator loads the main engine. This increases MPG/KPLand lowers CO2 emissions. However, in order for this system to be effective, the starter battery must have ‘free space’ to boost the energy into the battery, this requires the battery to be about 20% depleted (low enough to allow more power to be boosted into it but not too low as to prevent the engine from restarting when switched off). To replenish this ‘free space’, during deceleration or braking events, the voltage on the alternator shoots up to approximately 15V+. This higher voltage fast charges the starter battery to replenish its capacity. As you are using the inertia of the vehicle to charge the battery, rather than fuel, it is seen as ‘free energy’. Then the voltage drops to about 12.4V to allow the free energy to be consumed by the vehicle allowing the battery to deplete itself by about 20% ready for the next speed reduction and so on and so forth. Albeit an improvement in terms of emissions, there are knock on effects regarding the auxiliary charging systems on board commercial vehicles, read on: Problems with Smart Alternator / Regenerative Braking The system requires a 20% empty starter battery for the system to work. It needs the space to “dump” the fast energy build up during braking. This is in direct conflict with the auxiliary charging system requirements, why? 1) No charge going into the batteries during the 12.2-12.4V phase (which is totally by primary system design). Therefore, if a simple relay charging system was used to charge the auxiliary system it would not be charged during this time frame. This will be a problem if you require a charged auxiliary battery during travel or at location to location. 2) Very high battery charge rate during vehicle deceleration / braking due to alternator high voltage. This is relatively problem free for the starter battery as its relatively full. However, a large empty auxiliary bank could experience high currents at high voltages (much higher than their recommended level) which would be detrimental to the battery leading to premature destruction. Problem with using voltage sensitive/controlled relays? 1) Most VSR / VCRs have time delays before activating. 2) Even when the relay engages then at low voltages the batteries do not charge but at high voltage the aux batteries will get damaged due to massive current in rushes. Also remember that the inherent software control system prevents the battery from being over 80% charged, so even when the battery is charging it will prematurely stop charging due to the software limitations which must leave that 20% space for the unit to be able to dump the braking power, so you can never fully charge a battery using a relay or fet controller you must use an active power product like the CTEK Dual, Ripca EL1225 or Sterling BB1230. (other products are available and prices vary hugely)
T6 Dave's Dad
Member
@travelvolts I'm sorry to say that I got lost in the technical bit, but I know a man that won't, but thank you for taking the time and trouble to give this lengthy explanation to explain the changes to a vehicle's electrical charge and discharge system brought about by complex electronics. It appears to a simple chap like me that this "energy harvesting" is akin to that developed and used in F1 racing cars and hybrid technology road vehicles.
Yes, very akin.
irishwales
Member
Travelvolts: thanks for your informative reply however i asked as i h ave a sterling bb amp battery to battery in stock i was going to use as i bought it for a 3rd of retail but i keep hearing from contacts i have who fit out ambulances, and rescue vans all the time that all they use is a bigger VSR a good friend of mine whos big on the forums also has a 66 plate t6 euro 6 engine that only has a vsr which i connected to a volt meter and run for 30 minutes it never peaked past 14.7
i have the battery to battery charger ready to fit but its big and bulky compared to a VSR have you actually seen a t6 peak past 14.7 or anyone else have any view before i commit
i have the battery to battery charger ready to fit but its big and bulky compared to a VSR have you actually seen a t6 peak past 14.7 or anyone else have any view before i commit
Under braking conditions the output does rise to 15 volts briefly. If your van is still charging at thirty minutes run time then you must have a heavy load like AC switched on. Under normal conditions the alternator switches off after 13 minutes on a T6. This is the crux of the problem, with a VSR you will not charge the aux battery at this point apart from the occasional boost under braking. Personally I don't think that this will harm your battery, especially if you use an AGM. All of this (apart from the last bit) is fact, not just opinion.
irishwales
Member
OK convinced thanks again for your time Travelvolts - is there any reason why i cant use the
sterling bb1260 60amp battery to battery charger connected to a Banner Bull ah battery with 16mm2 cable and midi fuses the whole system will owe me less than 280 and its already here
sterling bb1260 60amp battery to battery charger connected to a Banner Bull ah battery with 16mm2 cable and midi fuses the whole system will owe me less than 280 and its already here
If the battery has removable caps so that you can top up electrolyte then it will be fine. A 60 amp charger is too much for a sealed battery as you would loose too much electrolyte .
Another general consideration here is the fact that even at their best relay based split charging systems were not very efficient. Being limited by the poor regulator inside the alternator charging currents were rarely above 10 amps for any length of time and would never completely charge an aux battery. This resulted in the need for a multi charge mains charger to finish job or suffer poor performance and premature failure of the aux battery.
So, you can offset the extra cost of an active charging system over a relay based system against the resultant better service, longer battery life and unless you have specific requirements, removal of the need for a mains charger.
These advantages are brought into sharp focus when you consider that more and more people prefer to wild camp and rely heavily on charging on the move.
Another general consideration here is the fact that even at their best relay based split charging systems were not very efficient. Being limited by the poor regulator inside the alternator charging currents were rarely above 10 amps for any length of time and would never completely charge an aux battery. This resulted in the need for a multi charge mains charger to finish job or suffer poor performance and premature failure of the aux battery.
So, you can offset the extra cost of an active charging system over a relay based system against the resultant better service, longer battery life and unless you have specific requirements, removal of the need for a mains charger.
These advantages are brought into sharp focus when you consider that more and more people prefer to wild camp and rely heavily on charging on the move.
Here is a CTEK Dual installed in factory converted T5. (in a cupboard).
A Ripca eLogic EL1225 under a drivers seat.
A conventional fit using the Victron Cyrix-CT relay (most intelligent in class) under the front seat. Not much to see really, the relay is just forward of the battery on the rim of the seat base.
A Ripca eLogic EL1225 under a drivers seat.
A conventional fit using the Victron Cyrix-CT relay (most intelligent in class) under the front seat. Not much to see really, the relay is just forward of the battery on the rim of the seat base.
I could do with a bit of help on this 
before I install and find out the hard way. (Still in box so can go back)
I went for a 'Ring RSCDC30 DC To DC Smart Battery Charger 30amp'. As I was told this is one of the few all in one Solar mppt / BMT compatible split chargers out there.
Anyone installed or thought?
RSCDC30 | DC/DC Battery SmartCharger | SmartChargePro
before I install and find out the hard way. (Still in box so can go back)I went for a 'Ring RSCDC30 DC To DC Smart Battery Charger 30amp'. As I was told this is one of the few all in one Solar mppt / BMT compatible split chargers out there.
Anyone installed or thought?
RSCDC30 | DC/DC Battery SmartCharger | SmartChargePro
The Ring unit will do the job fine. Fairly new to market so I doubt you will get much feedback. Where did you buy it?
@travelvolts , many thanks for the technical explanation, being in the trade somewhat on the mechanical/electrical side amongst other things, I will add my thoughts. I have read the in depth explanation, and can confirm it as accurate, and I WONT be fitting a VSR of any make to my euro5 beast when I get my hands on her. I like the look of the RING unitso good find @Willoughby , and will most likely give that a go, as looks quite informative through its display (me likes info/lights).
Separate to that, an observation for everyone, Having brought an up to date Euro5/6 vehicle controlled in the main by programable this and that, with up to date computer controlled charging system. Why bung on an old fashioned VSR no matter how "up to date", when the other system helps you get the most out of everything including solar hookup. I understand it's confusing at first, but so were home computers, and with the likes of @travelvolts amongst others here to give advice, take your time, but cheaper isn't always the better route
Separate to that, an observation for everyone, Having brought an up to date Euro5/6 vehicle controlled in the main by programable this and that, with up to date computer controlled charging system. Why bung on an old fashioned VSR no matter how "up to date", when the other system helps you get the most out of everything including solar hookup. I understand it's confusing at first, but so were home computers, and with the likes of @travelvolts amongst others here to give advice, take your time, but cheaper isn't always the better route
@T6 Dave, @T6 Dave's Dad, @travelvolts you have all left me in a bit of a quandary now.
As I am about to fit out a high-top LWB BlueMotion T6 with the intention of connecting up the leisure batteries as per the California (not a VSR but a high current relay controlled by the BCM as VW do it) and seeing how things worked out it looked a good trial method. However I am also intending to fit PV on the roof so would additionally need a good PV controller.
The previously mentioned Ring RSCDC30 looks like a solution that will work out as a cost effective option to cover all bases IF it will cope with charging twin leisure batteries.
Thoughts Martyn and others?
Rod
PS Still no further knowledge coming from the VCDS community on possible differences between BCM and/or Battery Regulator coding between a 'normal' BlueMotion T6 and a BlueMotion Cali.
As I am about to fit out a high-top LWB BlueMotion T6 with the intention of connecting up the leisure batteries as per the California (not a VSR but a high current relay controlled by the BCM as VW do it) and seeing how things worked out it looked a good trial method. However I am also intending to fit PV on the roof so would additionally need a good PV controller.
The previously mentioned Ring RSCDC30 looks like a solution that will work out as a cost effective option to cover all bases IF it will cope with charging twin leisure batteries.
Thoughts Martyn and others?
Rod
PS Still no further knowledge coming from the VCDS community on possible differences between BCM and/or Battery Regulator coding between a 'normal' BlueMotion T6 and a BlueMotion Cali.
T6 Dave's Dad
Member
@rod_vw I am not a techie so I will admit to nil expertise, avoid adding to your confusion and leave it to the likes of @travelvolts 
. I do know that @T6 Dave is impressed and is considering the Ring to fit to his van when he gets it
. I do know that @T6 Dave is impressed and is considering the Ring to fit to his van when he gets it
@rod_vw I THINK that it will, but need to check up, will go through a m8 who is manager of a motor factors local to ask Ring technical once I get my head together. If you can post a sketch of how your thinking of wiring it (paper then camera pic if no illustrator or similar) it would be useful, as I could ask if he could email it to Ring as an example along with my thoughts for their take on it (note I've yet to see him over this).
What I like with the Ring as well, is having had a glance at the manual quickly, you can program it for different battery types, so it has different charging regimes, and not just a one fits all solution. You can also see battery info on state of charge and amps drawn etc all useful stuff. It also shouldn't need the relay to separate the battery's when not running, as will go into sleep mode etc, and WONT deplete the main battery below a certain level, even with engine off.
What I like with the Ring as well, is having had a glance at the manual quickly, you can program it for different battery types, so it has different charging regimes, and not just a one fits all solution. You can also see battery info on state of charge and amps drawn etc all useful stuff. It also shouldn't need the relay to separate the battery's when not running, as will go into sleep mode etc, and WONT deplete the main battery below a certain level, even with engine off.
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I got it from Commercial Vehicle Parts and Accessories | Truckapart Online Parts Store in Uddingston. Nearly went for a Sterling power unit but they don't do a solar one atm.
If anyone thinking of going for the a Sterling Power unit, give there tech guys a call and you may get a discount code
If really stuck I have a one to give away if required PM me Kev
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Unless you plan to fit open lead acid batteries I would advise against any charging at more than 30 amps unless you want to wreck your batteries. The Ring one is perfectly adequate for up to 300 ah
I am waiting for the Ring rep to come and see me. If the quality stands up against the CTEK then I will stock it in preference as it seems to be a more suitable option, especially for your average DIY install. We must however be realistic with our expectations when you consider that an equivalent product from Victron or Mastervolt will cost you the best part of a grand.
Recalling a conversation that I had with a VW Master Tech a few months back, the T6 now uses a new component coding system. It is no longer possible for example to move a stereo from one vehicle to another. Not even dealers are able to do this. He also intimated that a lot of post sale upgrading will no longer be possible as the coding won't be available. I have no doubt that in time some clever sod will crack the coding but until then..
I am waiting for the Ring rep to come and see me. If the quality stands up against the CTEK then I will stock it in preference as it seems to be a more suitable option, especially for your average DIY install. We must however be realistic with our expectations when you consider that an equivalent product from Victron or Mastervolt will cost you the best part of a grand.
Recalling a conversation that I had with a VW Master Tech a few months back, the T6 now uses a new component coding system. It is no longer possible for example to move a stereo from one vehicle to another. Not even dealers are able to do this. He also intimated that a lot of post sale upgrading will no longer be possible as the coding won't be available. I have no doubt that in time some clever sod will crack the coding but until then..
T6 Dave's Dad
Member
@travelvolts I suppose the new component coding system is an attempt to beat vehicle thefts and breaking for parts or ringing vehicles?
Thats any interesting point you make there @travelvolts , i can confirm headunits are VIN coded and non transferable (even when dealers disable component protection) and i thought component protection extended across all control modules but have changed a few with no issues, they didnt even need coding in just swapped and worked ? so my assumption is that it is restricted to 'important' modules
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