Please help me - how to use camper plug sockets?

[Alexryc]

Also worth posting a picture of your starter battery under the bonnet so people can see if anything has been connected to the negative terminal by the convertor, if so this would be wrong for a stop start smart alternator

I’ve done this

I’m a bit confused about your description I’m afraid.

To confirm - the ‘alternator’ is what charges the starter battery (and therefore powers the normal vehicle electrics) when the engine is running. It’s a standard part of the van. Is that what you are meaning?

You mention a ‘fuse in the back’ that you turn on when on mains. That’s not what a fuse is used for. Can you highlight it on a pic?

I have a hunch that your inverter may be attached direct to your starter battery via the thick black lead with a red end that goes from the + terminal of the starter battery. It looks similar to the one going to the back of the inverter on one of the pics. If that’s the case you will flatten the starter battery very quickly - possibly hence the low voltage warnings you are getting. It needs to go to the leisure battery. I guess the red lead goes to the DS300. Both should (must) have a fuse very close to the starter battery - possibly just off the left of your pic above.

The two standard 3 pin plugs under the control panel will almost certainly only work when on mains hookup (and you’ve turned the ‘fuse’ on). I’m not familiar with your control panel so you may need to make a selection there too (instructions will be online - try 12voltplanet). It’s theoretically possible to make those sockets work from the inverter but I doubt that is how they’ve been wired given the rest of the setup.

The USB and cig lighter sockets above will be powered from your leisure battery via the control panel.

I suggest you ensure the inverter is turned off and all other sockets, lights etc. Connect to hookup and ensure the mains charger (Rayne) is charging - leave it for a good 12 hours until the little indicator light has gone to the end of the cycle. That will ensure your leisure battery is as charged as much as it can be. If wired correctly it will also top up the starter battery. At least the you know the batteries are charged and can work from there. Good luck!

Thank you very much.

This is exactly how everything works. Apologies, I’ve confused things by using the wrong word. I meant inverter and not alternator!

What I mean is though… when I am off grin, not hooked up to mains… I was told, if I then turn on the inverter… it will allow me to use the two plug sockets on the inverter and I can use these when off grid for things such as plugging in my laptop.

But when I turn the inverter on… and plug something in… it doesn’t work.

Why would that be?

 

[ginkster]

I’ve done this


Thank you very much.

This is exactly how everything works. Apologies, I’ve confused things by using the wrong word. I meant inverter and not alternator!

What I mean is though… when I am off grin, not hooked up to mains… I was told, if I then turn on the inverter… it will allow me to use the two plug sockets on the inverter and I can use these when off grid for things such as plugging in my laptop.

But when I turn the inverter on… and plug something in… it doesn’t work.

Why would that be?

Got it. Possibly because whichever battery it’s connected to hasn’t got enough power. The light may come on but not enough power to produce 240v. Get both batteries fully charged and see if it works. Whatever the outcome the inverter needs to be powered by the leisure battery rather than the starter battery otherwise you will end up stranding yourself.

 

[Grim Reaper]

I can't believe that converters are still using kit meant for old style vehicles, do they not know modern vehicle charging systems work differently nowadays? With that set-up I reckon you're going to not get the best experience and at worst end up leaving you stranded somewhere because the starter battery has gone flat.
If that red wire is the one used to connect the starter battery to the leisure battery to charge it up when the engine is running, it looks a little undersized to me (I'd want something the size of the black with red end), and as mentioned previously, both need some local fuse arrangement for safety.
If the leisure battery gets really depleted there could be a lot of current running through that red wire (assuming there is some disconnect between the two if the engine is not running) and an undersized wire can heat up a lot.
With no DC-DC charger, the leisure battery is only ever going to get charged as much as the starter battery (unless you're on hookup where the rayne automotive charger has had time to top it off or it's been a sunny day and the solar panels have had time to do the same), which on a T6 could be only to 80% full because of the way the charging system with the Start/Stop technology is used.
Until you can confirm the way the inverter is connected, I would only use the inverter while the engine is running and ensure it is switched off whenever you are not using the sockets for power.

 

[Alexryc]

I can't believe that converters are still using kit meant for old style vehicles, do they not know modern vehicle charging systems work differently nowadays? With that set-up I reckon you're going to not get the best experience and at worst end up leaving you stranded somewhere because the starter battery has gone flat.
If that red wire is the one used to connect the starter battery to the leisure battery to charge it up when the engine is running, it looks a little undersized to me (I'd want something the size of the black with red end), and as mentioned previously, both need some local fuse arrangement for safety.
If the leisure battery gets really depleted there could be a lot of current running through that red wire (assuming there is some disconnect between the two if the engine is not running) and an undersized wire can heat up a lot.
With no DC-DC charger, the leisure battery is only ever going to get charged as much as the starter battery (unless you're on hookup where the rayne automotive charger has had time to top it off or it's been a sunny day and the solar panels have had time to do the same), which on a T6 could be only to 80% full because of the way the charging system with the Start/Stop technology is used.
Until you can confirm the way the inverter is connected, I would only use the inverter while the engine is running and ensure it is switched off whenever you are not using the sockets for power.

Even when the engine is running the inverter is not working.

When you say kit for old style vehicles; can you please tell me what the gold standard way of doing this would be? And also; is it worth me buying a bigger leisure battery?

Thanks mate as always.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Have you found the leisure battery yet? What is the Ah figure on it?
Minimum Standard for a T6.1 would be a DC-DC Charger between Starter Battery and Leisure Battery for a start.
Leisure Battery nowadays AGM as minimum, Lithium as Gold, Size (Ah) depending on how much you expect to need it for use off grid, 100Ah minimum I would say.
How big are the solar panels? 100W?
A DC-DC charger that can put 40A back into the Lithium would be standard, one that has Solar input is available but not necessary, some like seperate solar charge controllers but an MPPT type one is best.
Your Mains Charger (Rayne Automotive) is 8A but only AGM, you could stand a better charger that will cope with Lithium should you make the change.

It's such a rabbit hole with camper van electrics, take a look at Delmassive's How I done it threads for some ideas, or search for individual items on the forum, there are plenty of what I used type threads and reviews of things that didn't quite live up to expectations.
I personally have a Victron 100Ah Lithium Superpack (not the latest and greatest but it does everything I need it to do) paired with a Redarc BCDC1240D DC-DC charger with Solar input tied in to a 200W solar panel on the roof. I don't have a mains charger for the leisure battery because I don't need it, the solar replenishes what is used overnight quite quickly not to need one, and a few minutes with engine running would restore enough were it not to be sunny.
I have a Victron 800W inverter which I've used once in 4 years, it's there in case but I mainly use 12V power adapters and USB for most things.
I also have a Victron Solar charge controller that I can pair up to the solar panels instead of the Redarc, this allows me to charge the starter battery from the sun to keep it topped up.

 

[jimc91]

Can you post a picture of your leisure battery showing the connections on top, this will help

 

[ginkster]

Even when the engine is running the inverter is not working.

When you say kit for old style vehicles; can you please tell me what the gold standard way of doing this would be? And also; is it worth me buying a bigger leisure battery?

Thanks mate as always.

Something is odd there! What does the control panel above the USB socket say about the state of charge of the 2 batteries? This needs to be done with all loads turned off and nothing being charged otherwise the reading is useless. The reading on those is not great anyhow, but it’s better than nothing and may help find the issue. I think your leisure battery maybe low/knackered but difficult to tell for sure.

The old kit Grim Reaper refers to is mainly the CBE box, mains charger and possibly the solar controller. The CBE DS300 is not designed for vehicles with smart alternators so shouldn’t really be seen on anything with stop/start tech (e.g. Euro 6) and isn’t much good for upgrading as it’s not lithium compatible. The Rayne is ok with wet/gel batteries but again doesn’t look to be lithium compatible if you wanted to upgrade. Not sure about the solar charger. It smacks of converters doing things on the cheap.

I’m in the same boat as when my van was converted by the previous owner the converters (Bus Stop - now gone bust!) used the same CBE box plus charger etc and a basic lead-acid battery. I’m adding solar and lithium and have run into the limitations of the CBE kit. It’s all coming out (not the sockets or 240v stuff as they are good, just the DS300, CBE mains charger and battery) and I’m replacing with Victron DC-DC, solar charger, mains charger and a Fogstar lithium battery. To be fair the CBE kit did work and I could get about 36 hours off-grid with the basic 100Ah lead-acid leisure battery. However, I need longer hence the upgrade!

The red cable from the starter battery looks similar to mine (8.5mm2) to the DS300 and it is ok for that application (just) but is a limiting factor if you upgrade in the future. I either need to route a new cable or put the Victron DC-DC under the drivers seat and hopefully use the existing cable (just!).

It’s a minefield and I wish I knew what I know now about the electrics when I was buying the van. The main issues I would suggest you raise with your converters is how the DS300 is working with the smart alternator and how the inverter is wired up. As a minimum I would look to get the DS300 swapped for a DC-DC charger with correct cabling and ensure the inverter runs from the leisure battery. The mains charger, solar controller and leisure battery (assuming it’s not knackered) are ok to start and can be easily upgraded as you go along. The DS300 and cable are much more difficult and should have been done right to start with. I’ll see if I can find some info re DS300 vs smart alternators.

 

[ginkster]

A couple of links for you:

Smart Alternator versus Charger

Details of CBE kit

 

[Alexryc]

Something is odd there! What does the control panel above the USB socket say about the state of charge of the 2 batteries? This needs to be done with all loads turned off and nothing being charged otherwise the reading is useless. The reading on those is not great anyhow, but it’s better than nothing and may help find the issue. I think your leisure battery maybe low/knackered but difficult to tell for sure.

The old kit Grim Reaper refers to is mainly the CBE box, mains charger and possibly the solar controller. The CBE DS300 is not designed for vehicles with smart alternators so shouldn’t really be seen on anything with stop/start tech (e.g. Euro 6) and isn’t much good for upgrading as it’s not lithium compatible. The Rayne is ok with wet/gel batteries but again doesn’t look to be lithium compatible if you wanted to upgrade. Not sure about the solar charger. It smacks of converters doing things on the cheap.

I’m in the same boat as when my van was converted by the previous owner the converters (Bus Stop - now gone bust!) used the same CBE box plus charger etc and a basic lead-acid battery. I’m adding solar and lithium and have run into the limitations of the CBE kit. It’s all coming out (not the sockets or 240v stuff as they are good, just the DS300, CBE mains charger and battery) and I’m replacing with Victron DC-DC, solar charger, mains charger and a Fogstar lithium battery. To be fair the CBE kit did work and I could get about 36 hours off-grid with the basic 100Ah lead-acid leisure battery. However, I need longer hence the upgrade!

The red cable from the starter battery looks similar to mine (8.5mm2) to the DS300 and it is ok for that application (just) but is a limiting factor if you upgrade in the future. I either need to route a new cable or put the Victron DC-DC under the drivers seat and hopefully use the existing cable (just!).

It’s a minefield and I wish I knew what I know now about the electrics when I was buying the van. The main issues I would suggest you raise with your converters is how the DS300 is working with the smart alternator and how the inverter is wired up. As a minimum I would look to get the DS300 swapped for a DC-DC charger with correct cabling and ensure the inverter runs from the leisure battery. The mains charger, solar controller and leisure battery (assuming it’s not knackered) are ok to start and can be easily upgraded as you go along. The DS300 and cable are much more difficult and should have been done right to start with. I’ll see if I can find some info re DS300 vs smart alternators.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the time taken to write to me, this was really helpful.

Would it be unreasonable for me to ask the company I purchased from to upgrade the DS300 as per your comment?

 

[ginkster]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the time taken to write to me, this was really helpful.

Would it be unreasonable for me to ask the company I purchased from to upgrade the DS300 as per your comment?

I think it‘s perfectly reasonable to insist that it is changed as it is not fit for purpose. The wiring from the starter battery will need to be changed to the correct standard too.

 

[Alexryc]

Have you found the leisure battery yet? What is the Ah figure on it?
Minimum Standard for a T6.1 would be a DC-DC Charger between Starter Battery and Leisure Battery for a start.
Leisure Battery nowadays AGM as minimum, Lithium as Gold, Size (Ah) depending on how much you expect to need it for use off grid, 100Ah minimum I would say.
How big are the solar panels? 100W?
A DC-DC charger that can put 40A back into the Lithium would be standard, one that has Solar input is available but not necessary, some like seperate solar charge controllers but an MPPT type one is best.
Your Mains Charger (Rayne Automotive) is 8A but only AGM, you could stand a better charger that will cope with Lithium should you make the change.

It's such a rabbit hole with camper van electrics, take a look at Delmassive's How I done it threads for some ideas, or search for individual items on the forum, there are plenty of what I used type threads and reviews of things that didn't quite live up to expectations.
I personally have a Victron 100Ah Lithium Superpack (not the latest and greatest but it does everything I need it to do) paired with a Redarc BCDC1240D DC-DC charger with Solar input tied in to a 200W solar panel on the roof. I don't have a mains charger for the leisure battery because I don't need it, the solar replenishes what is used overnight quite quickly not to need one, and a few minutes with engine running would restore enough were it not to be sunny.
I have a Victron 800W inverter which I've used once in 4 years, it's there in case but I mainly use 12V power adapters and USB for most things.
I also have a Victron Solar charge controller that I can pair up to the solar panels instead of the Redarc, this allows me to charge the starter battery from the sun to keep it topped up.

I have been told, that the attached quote is what I need to turn my setup around and be able to use it off grid much more effectively… would you agree?

 

[ginkster]

I have been told, that the attached quote is what I need to turn my setup around and be able to use it off grid much more effectively… would you agree?

View attachment 225683

View attachment 225684

View attachment 225685

Told by who? Not the converters hopefully as they should have done that first time round!

What’s required will depend on how you want to use it. That’s certainly a very solid setup but some parts may be overkill (do you really need 160Ah battery) and others could be better (e.g 30A DC-DC rather than 18A) depending on your planned use.

 

[Alexryc]

Told by who? Not the converters hopefully as they should have done that first time round!

What’s required will depend on how you want to use it. That’s certainly a very solid setup but some parts may be overkill (do you really need 160Ah battery) and others could be better (e.g 30A DC-DC rather than 18A) depending on your planned use.

This was told by an independent, not the person selling the van.

When you say do I really need; My brief was that I wanted it to work off grid in the winter say for, 1 week. Would that setup get me that?

 

[Grim Reaper]

For £219 you can get a Renogy 50A DC-DC charger with built in MPPT solar charge controller, a Renogy 209Ah lithium battery for £615, £129 for a Renogy 20A mains, charger so some cheaper options are out there.

 

[Alexryc]

For £219 you can get a Renogy 50A DC-DC charger with built in MPPT solar charge controller, a Renogy 209Ah lithium battery for £615, so some cheaper options are out there.

Thank you GR. I am completely new to this so slightly out of my depth. I wanted to try and make sure I could be off grid for a week or so without panicking.

Would that get me that?

 

[Grim Reaper]

Off grid with no mains supply, I would get a Victron BMV 712 or Renogy equivalent monitor to keep an eye on it, your deciding factor is the size of the solar panel, in winter you may not be able to put back what you use (assuming usual items like fridge, diesel heater and lighting use) but a short engine run will restore faith that you're not going to run out of juice.

 

[ginkster]

This was told by an independent, not the person selling the van.

When you say do I really need; My brief was that I wanted it to work off grid in the winter say for, 1 week. Would that setup get me that?

I would suggest doing a rough power audit as a week off-grid is rather vague and doesn’t really guide what is required. Are you static, driving (how often and long), what are you powering (fridge, heater, inverter…) and how often etc. Only once you have an idea of the power use and your recharge capability can you workout the kit required. For example - if you drive a couple of hours daily then a 100Ah battery could be sufficient (load dependent). The quote you have wouldn’t last anywhere near a week without running the engine every couple of days. If that’s your main source of recharging (you won’t get much solar in winter!) then you want a powerful DC-DC to minimise engine running. A key advantage of lithium batteries is they will take more charge power and charge much faster than other batteries so you want kit to maximise this. I’d suggest having a look through these links to get a feel for your power needs and thoughts on system design. You can always leave room to upgrade as you go along and learn how you actually use the van - e.g. a second battery, solar panel etc. Happy reading!

Faroutride

Climbingvan

Explorist.life

 

[roadtripper]

A week in winter is a big ask, especially if you want that to include inverter use. Not impossible but certainly well beyond the capability of your existing equipment.

Be very clear that's what you want as it will dominate your choice of electrics.

You would certainly want to uprate your chargers to make the best use of any charging time.

I suspect your current inverter (from your description and pictures) is actually wired to your starter battery and expected to be used when the engine is running - so mostly alternator fed. That's a more traditional way of doing it before high capacity batteries, and it's how we cope with our 1500w inverter on our boat.

If your inverter use is such that you could use it supported by the engine when needed it will considerably lower the demands on your batteries.

 

[TallPaul_S]

This was told by an independent, not the person selling the van.

When you say do I really need; My brief was that I wanted it to work off grid in the winter say for, 1 week. Would that setup get me that?

If you're off grid with limited driving then solar probably won't put back in what you're taking out. Where my van is currently parked I'm getting an hour or 2 of direct sun, at most, at the moment - and the 18a B2B charger will take ages to put power back into the battery. I've just done a quick online calc and you'd get 10% charge on the 160Ah battery in a hour of driving @ 18a. Whereas with a 50a charger you'd get 30% charge back in the same time.

 

[Howzat]

I have a hunch that your inverter may be attached direct to your starter battery via the thick black lead with a red end that goes from the + terminal of the starter battery.

But if the van can start (ie not dead starter battery) then why does the inverter not work if its wired to the starter battery?

@Alexryc. You're probably not too far from me (Jnc23 M6) and would be happy to take a look if you want to drive over sometime.