180 vs 204

[mark]

Mate of mine wants a new van, currently drives a oldish 180 with 120K on the clock so thinking of changing to a 204. I actually drove his 180 on the way to test drive a 204- WOW what a difference between my 180 and his, you'd swear it's a different engine. The numbers might be the same but the driving experience is totally different. The main difference is just the noise - it sounds like an old lister 3 pot dumper engine from the outside and ain't much better in. Whatever changes they made with the T6, it's completely changed the vehicle , might look the same but underneath it's way better all round. A lot more sound insulation fitted to the 6 as well n(apparently !)

Got chatting to one the mechanics down there and apparently their constantly changing and updating stuff on the engines so though both engines have the same code they can actually be quite different. The 204 gets a different engine code but also share quite a bit of stuff with the 180 - apparently VW just like to tweak things as they go along so no major changes it even shares the same bore/stroke etc. The main bit is the adblue system but thats not really part of the engine itself rather bolted on for clean up. Doesn't seem to be giving any problems either and it has allowed the software to be tweaked for better MPG - which has got to be good. Although you'd probably be worse off it you had to buy the stuff at main dealer prices !!!

The 204 sure felt good after the drive in but in a quick 20min drive round town with traffic couldn't tell any difference between it and my 180. Would probably take a good motorway hill to sort them out but both engines are more than powerful enough for any normal day to day stuff. In fact I don't think I've come anywhere close to top speed in my 180 let alone what the 204 would do.

Been a good day, kept getting told the T6 is just a T5.3 really but really it isn't.

 

[former member]

We had the 180 T5.1 Cali - I think the 204 engine is about 23452353 better.
Quieter, significantly more shove, much better on fuel, nicer power curve, just much nicer.

 

[mark]

After driving my mates 2010 -180 I know what you mean- it just felt very agricultural all round.

My T6 has the same engine ( apparently ) but is just so different - I've been trying to find out whats changed but it's almost impossible to nail down as VW don't list them . But there was a massive change in 2012 - different cylinder head/ oil pathways/ water cooling/ software/EGR valves etc . This was to try and cure the 'oil consumption issues' that some had. Not nice to cure as the remedy was a completely new engine and it normally took about three years to show up- just after the warranty ended.!!

They thought ( wrongly ) that high thermal loads caused the problem so changes were made to bring the temps down - apparently the early 180's ran with oil temps around 120/130. Mine runs around 96/98 so it looks like that bit at least worked.

I'd guess even more changes have been made with the T6 and bluemotion , the 6 gets a lot more sound insulation around the engine bay as well which has got to be good. It was a shame not to get a real good test out of the 204 I test-road but the roads were just too busy , at low (normal ! ) speeds you couldn't tell them apart.

 

[former member]

The later 180s do seems FAR more reliable than the early ones (ours was an early 2012) - once BMT came in, the issues seem to all but go. Maybe that high temperature issue was the key - we needed three replacement EGR valves, a new ECU and new software; took the dealer 12 WEEKS to work that one out.
Meanwhile a friend considering a T6 California is having massive oil issues with his 62 plate 180 4motion and VW aren't being helpful at all. They've admitted there's a problem (even that took a lot of effort) but won't do anything about it.

One thing I have noticed about the 204 unit is a flat spot at very low revs then the same at high - like the power almost switches off. Could be torque limiting or similar. I've very rarely experienced the top end one and if you keep the revs between about 1800 and 4000 it really moves at a rather amazing rate for such a big lump of a van.

 

[mark]

Unfortunately for your friend the only cure for the excessive oil use is a completely new engine and emission systems. VW know exactly whats wrong but the bill to fix it is just massive, you can't even keep topping it up as damage is so great it soon looses compression and won't start. His /her engine has basically been destroyed by the EGR cooler system ( unique to the transporter 180 bitdi ) it's allowed 'aluminum oxide' to be produced and enter the combustion chamber. Aluminum in this form is seriously hard , (Mohs hardness- 9 ) about the same as tungsten carbide. Of all the stuff you could chuck in a engine this is right up their with the worst- it's why the engine has now been destroyed and is completely un-repairable. The oil used also takes out the emissions stuff like the DPF as well.

The fault was their from the start but it usually takes 40/60 k to really show up, once it does things go from bad to worse pretty quick, some folks have got a discount from VW but even then the bill is still pretty substantial.

 

[former member]

Unfortunately for your friend the only cure for the excessive oil use is a completely new engine and emission systems. VW know exactly whats wrong but the bill to fix it is just massive, you can't even keep topping it up as damage is so great it soon looses compression and won't start. His /her engine has basically been destroyed by the EGR cooler system ( unique to the transporter 180 bitdi ) it's allowed 'aluminum oxide' to be produced and enter the combustion chamber. Aluminum in this form is seriously hard , (Mohs hardness- 9 ) about the same as tungsten carbide. Of all the stuff you could chuck in a engine this is right up their with the worst- it's why the engine has now been destroyed and is completely un-repairable. The oil used also takes out the emissions stuff like the DPF as well.

The fault was their from the start but it usually takes 40/60 k to really show up, once it does things go from bad to worse pretty quick, some folks have got a discount from VW but even then the bill is still pretty substantial.

Ouch!

Luckily they are obscenely well off so it might not be a total disaster.

 

[chriscroft]

Unfortunately for your friend the only cure for the excessive oil use is a completely new engine and emission systems. VW know exactly whats wrong but the bill to fix it is just massive, you can't even keep topping it up as damage is so great it soon looses compression and won't start. His /her engine has basically been destroyed by the EGR cooler system ( unique to the transporter 180 bitdi ) it's allowed 'aluminum oxide' to be produced and enter the combustion chamber. Aluminum in this form is seriously hard , (Mohs hardness- 9 ) about the same as tungsten carbide. Of all the stuff you could chuck in a engine this is right up their with the worst- it's why the engine has now been destroyed and is completely un-repairable. The oil used also takes out the emissions stuff like the DPF as well.

The fault was their from the start but it usually takes 40/60 k to really show up, once it does things go from bad to worse pretty quick, some folks have got a discount from VW but even then the bill is still pretty substantial.

The dealer tells me, that they set up all T6's for a long life service; 20K miles(variable)/2 years. I am certainly thinking a intermediate 10k miles oil and filter could be money well spent, given all the work that the oil does in these highly complex euro6 engines. On up side as I understand it, the turbo/compressed air is kept cooler with a water based solution, hence the removal of the air/air intercooler; which may help the longevity of the new engines and their oil.

 

[former member]

They are also charge cooled rather than intercooled which is apparently better.

We had so many issues with our 180 that I vowed not to get a diesel again but the call of the Cali was strong and after a year of tent and hotel stays, we had to get another. If the engine hadn't dramatically changed we wouldn't have bought one and that's why I initially ordered a 150; I had lost faith in the biturbos.
But a five year warranty and no reports of issues yet reassure me the 204 should be okay.

I'll be doing 10k oil and filter changes too.

 

[starlightexpress]

Hello all. First post.

I have had a string of Caravelles and recently swapped a 2015 T5 180 bitdi for a 2016 T6 204 bitdi. The 204 engine is substantially better - quieter, and stronger throughout the rev range but particularly it has better pickup from really low revs, maybe 1200rpm or so. The other thing that I've noticed is the DSG programming on the newer vehicle is even better thought out. If you put your foot down in D at about 1200+ rpm, it is less likely to change down and will just ride the wave of torque instead.

 

[former member]

Hello all. First post.

I have had a string of Caravelles and recently swapped a 2015 T5 180 bitdi for a 2016 T6 204 bitdi. The 204 engine is substantially better - quieter, and stronger throughout the rev range but particularly it has better pickup from really low revs, maybe 1200rpm or so. The other thing that I've noticed is the DSG programming on the newer vehicle is even better thought out. If you put your foot down in D at about 1200+ rpm, it is less likely to change down and will just ride the wave of torque instead.

Coincidentally the torque is the same as our (rather fast) M135i; which is a 3.0 six cylinder with a big turbo strapped to it. Pretty impressive for a 2.0 litre engine!

 

[chriscroft]

@Polzeylad accused me or reading car comics, so I have upgraded to this months "VW T" mag; I know that VW have tuned the Passat variant of a 204/450 to 240bhp/500NM some time ago.
But does anybody have any more info on this?, or is it pure speculation at this time?

I would certainly consider a VW upgrade if the warrantee/reliability were unchanged

 

[Pauly]

Im sure someone said that that power increase was not possible on T6 without a pipework modification somewhere
Be interesting to see what the 'VW approved' limit will be ??

 

[RattyMcClelland]

That article is misleading. They are assuming the 180 & 204ps engine are the same. They are not. They should ignore the 180ps altogether. That old and gone.

The 204ps is the same engine as the passat and Tiguan but in the t6 I think the turbos dump pipe is the restriction to lower boost and power.

Don't hold me to that though.

However a remap will change that instead of changing the hardware. They remap to 237bhp and over 500nm of the good stuff.

 

[former member]

201bhp in a van is plenty. Especially with FWD.

 

[chriscroft]

Willkommen bei B&B Automobiltechnik - Ihr Tuner für VW & Audi Fahrzeuge
These boys think 240/500 is possible with software
And 275bhp/560NM is possible I think with a down pipe mod and software (I think)

 

[Vinci]

Blimey, with that performance, top up with a certain energy drink instead of ad blue, strap wings to the sides and away you go

 

[mopardave]

The dealer tells me, that they set up all T6's for a long life service; 20K miles(variable)/2 years. I am certainly thinking a intermediate 10k miles oil and filter could be money well spent, given all the work that the oil does in these highly complex euro6 engines. On up side as I understand it, the turbo/compressed air is kept cooler with a water based solution, hence the removal of the air/air intercooler; which may help the longevity of the new engines and their oil.

Yup......my 150 will be getting an intermediate oil change at 12 months......probably about 7000 to 8000 miles by then. Always considered an oil and filter change to be a cheap form of preventative maintenance on all my cars.

 

[mopardave]

.....and on that subject......aren't VW engines a little bit choosey on oil choice? I always used Castrol Edge on my Beemer and got a top up bottle of Edge when I picked my van up.....but would I be right in saying it isn't easy to get hold of the specific formulation unless through a VW dealer......which probably means paying a lot more for it?!

 

[former member]

Indeed; my M135i which is far more powerful actually takes lower grade oil than our T6 Cali.

 

[RattyMcClelland]

Oil only depends on the engine and the climate.

5w30 Diesel specific oil. Thin on cold start as diesels hate cold starts. Low temperature rating as Diesel oil can stay quite constant.

In my Prelude I use Mobil 1 10w60 motorsport. 10 is a good rating for cold start petrol in this climate and the high temp 60 rating as I can see 110-120 degree oil temps in vtec.

10k oil change on the van. 5k on the car.