Camper conversion electrics system- does this look right?

[DentedT6.1]

Hi all and thanks in advance for any comments/info! I was hoping someone could give me an idea of if we've nailed the core components of the electrical system for what we want it for, and give me a ballpark idea of paying to have it fitted, so I can decide whether to do that or to do some/all parts myself.

We have a 2020 VW T6.1 T28 that we're slowly converting to a camper. We haven't fully decided on U bed vs RnR/RIB, but likely looking at a U bed with some top cabinets to increase storage (we value to width of the bed and love the social capability.

Current state of build:
Windows, insulation, sound deadening, carpet, floor insulation (Dodo DEADN) fitted. Old ply floor has been laid down on top just for ease but no floor fitted yet.



Electrical setup:
So we're looking at having a standard (probably Transporter HQ) fridge, a SMEV 9222 hob, a strip of LED lights, 2x AC chargers for phones/laptops (and a 1200w coffee machine if possible- we're coffee lovers) , and 2x USB chargers for misc. use. We'd also like the option of running more power intensive appliances when on a shore hookup- hair dryers and such!


The current setup thinking:
- T5.1/T6 Victron Orion Smart 18A DC-DC Charger Split Charging System (https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/p...smart-18a-dc-dc-charger-split-charging-system)
- Enduroline Low Height 95Ah AGM 12V Leisure Battery (https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/p...ow-height-95ah-agm-12v-leisure-battery-800w-h)
- 6-Switch Control Panel 12V - Satin Black (https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/product-page/6-switch-control-panel-12v-satin-black)
- 10A Victron Charger & Electrical Mains 240V 2-Way Hook Up Kit (https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/p...s-240v-2-way-hook-up-kit-with-victron-charger)
- A 1500W inverter (we need to find one that could fit under the seat or find a better mounting spot)

The current thinking is to wire the battery direct to appliances (LED lights, hob/tap, fridge) with fuses within the lines instead of fitting a fuse box- and we'd like to fit the electrics under the seat to keep the space in our cabinets as much as possible.

The question: Does the above setup seem like we've understood the core parts of the electrical system, and with a basic understanding of DIY (we've done all bar the windows ourselves so far) and a currently low understanding of electrics- how complex is this setup to wire in- or how much are we looking to hand it over to a local fitter? Diagram (not a wiring diagram so no pos/neg or earth stuff, just purely what we want to use it for and how we think it would run at a high level, below:


Thanks all- apologies if some of these are silly questions or we've missed something obvious!

 

[Johny]

Would have been easier to do the electrics before carpeting.

 

[JDC]

I got the elec priced in the summer at just over a grand. That was split charger, lesuire battery, socket, inverter etc. Nothing flash, just the basics really. They may charge more as it's carperetes or maybe just ram it all under the front seats.

 

[roadtripper]

At a quick glance I would say your inverter is over specced for your battery and chargers - everything else looks pretty balanced.

If you genuinely need that much off grid 240v then you should switch to LiFePo batteries and go up to the next size of DC-DC/Mains chargers to recover the charge in a reasonable time.

Currently your 1200w coffee machine will draw 100+ Amps and will deplete the 50Ah usable capacity of your AGM battery rapidly (30 minutes run time - then 5 hours charging on your EHU or about 2.5 hours of driving on your DC-DC) - a gas top espresso pot or an Aeropress both make excellent coffee for much less expenditure.

You only need a decent 300w inverter for your other mentioned uses - and most phones will charge off USB as will many modern laptops with USB-PD or a 12v adaptor meaning you don't need one at all.

Don't skip on the fusebox, the whole point is to protect the cable run and fuse early as possible, otherwise you have significant lengths of cable only protected by the leisure battery main fuse.

And on that point you really need a master fuse on your leisure battery as close to the terminal as possible. It would also be highly advisable to fuse the cable run from the starter battery at both ends.

Fusing your 12v system as proposed means you'll have direct to battery cables hidden in your van where a pinch or chafe may ground them, the unprotected current flow in such a situation has a fair chance of starting a fire inside your van.

Victron do a very good document on wiring safely:

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...imited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

 

[DentedT6.1]

I got the elec priced in the summer at just over a grand. That was split charger, lesuire battery, socket, inverter etc. Nothing flash, just the basics really. They may charge more as it's carperetes or maybe just ram it all under the front seats.

This is really helpful thanks- and about what I was expecting- was it including the shore charge system too? Cheers

 

[DentedT6.1]

At a quick glance I would say your inverter is over specced for your battery and chargers - everything else looks pretty balanced.

If you genuinely need that much off grid 240v then you should switch to LiFePo batteries and go up to the next size of DC-DC/Mains chargers to recover the charge in a reasonable time.

Currently your 1200w coffee machine will draw 100+ Amps and will deplete the 50Ah usable capacity of your AGM battery rapidly (30 minutes run time - then 5 hours charging on your EHU or about 2.5 hours of driving on your DC-DC) - a gas top espresso pot or an Aeropress both make excellent coffee for much less expenditure.

You only need a decent 300w inverter for your other mentioned uses - and most phones will charge off USB as will many modern laptops with USB-PD or a 12v adaptor meaning you don't need one at all.

Don't skip on the fusebox, the whole point is to protect the cable run and fuse early as possible, otherwise you have significant lengths of cable only protected by the leisure battery main fuse.

And on that point you really need a master fuse on your leisure battery as close to the terminal as possible. It would also be highly advisable to fuse the cable run from the starter battery at both ends.

Fusing your 12v system as proposed means you'll have direct to battery cables hidden in your van where a pinch or chafe may ground them, the unprotected current flow in such a situation has a fair chance of starting a fire inside your van.

Victron do a very good document on wiring safely:

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...imited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

This is great thanks- you’re echoing our worries about some of the appliances! One of the reasons for having a camper is being able to do our usual camping trips but “with luxury”, but everything needs power!

I suppose we could keep the purely Shore Charge AC sockets (so not drawing from the battery, and dead when not on EHU) as options for the coffee machine? It’s a Nespresso so I’d expect 15 mins of use a day, or even less

That said, the possibility of being able to use a low wattage electric toaster/kettle are very attractive to us, so it might be something to consider- I’ve seen kettles and toasters at 600W so maybe a 1000W inverter, or restrict our tidy breakfasts to campsites only! We know gas is massively more efficient… but it’s the little things we like

Appreciate the comments around fuses, will definitely be consulting an expert or having it done for us to confirm it’s done right- I’ll switch our approach to fuse box though and add the other points- cheers!

 

[roadtripper]

Basically any type of 240v that involves heating is going to use a lot of power, and will dictate the level of equipment/spend/space used.

It's only when you try and generate it yourself (or do the calculations) you realise just how much energy heating takes.

It's all doable but all the other needs you talk about can be met by a simpler cheaper system - so be really sure you need that off grid high power 240v capability (and yes of course have sockets on the EHU for when you are not)

I have 2 Nespresso machines at home but this is what I have in the van kitchen pod, simple compact and makes excellent coffee on a £10 cartridge stove

AeroPress Go Travel Coffee Maker

The AeroPress Go travel coffee maker is engineered to fuel an active lifestyle. It gives coffee lovers everything they need to conveniently brew superb coffee anywhere. Like the AeroPress Original, the AeroPress Go provides the same great taste and brews American, espresso, and cold brew style...

www.aeropress.co.uk

If you have a small Nespresso on board for when you are on EHU then there are a couple of well regarded hand Nespresso machines for around £100 that will work with your kettle that are quite compact.

 

[Drive Wayne]

Hi @DentedT6.1 , you have exactly the same base van as us, 2020 T6.1 T28.
For the luxuries you so desire, as we do, have you considered the possibility of a modest solar set up?
Ideally you would need a lithium set up, but there are products out there which seem to be getting cheaper all the time!
We have a 200Ah lithium battery, 180 watt solar panel, 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter.
The battery and the inverter are installed underneath our 'wardrobe' in the back kitchen side of the van, too big to go under the seats.
We have a 1300 watt coffee machine (which does peak at just over 1500 watts).
Wifey appreciates her hair straighteners and hair dryer, I like an 800watt camping toaster, and we have an induction hob, occasional use of a power drill(!) and too many chargers to mention. The majority of our cooking is outside on a Cadac.
Over the last year, on our various expeditions, our battery never went under 80% thanks to sun power!
EHU has become a thing of the past for us, but the facility is there should we need it! Potentially winter trips, but we are too 'soft' for those.
We had 2 issues, the flexi solar panel died on us, and the starter battery ran low until we fitted an Ablemail 12/2 starter battery trickle charger (£60 odd), easy for me to fit without the aid of a safety net!
Do you have the ability to put something unseen on your roof or do you have roof bars with surfboards or canoes in situ permanently? Will you be installing a pop top? If you are wait for that before you venture into the world of 'free off grid power'! (When I say free, it is once you've got the set up sorted)!
Perhaps we are just 'soft', but the creature comforts of home are sadly important to us!

 

[Bav]

Hi @DentedT6.1 , you have exactly the same base van as us, 2020 T6.1 T28.
For the luxuries you so desire, as we do, have you considered the possibility of a modest solar set up?
Ideally you would need a lithium set up, but there are products out there which seem to be getting cheaper all the time!
We have a 200Ah lithium battery, 180 watt solar panel, 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter.
The battery and the inverter are installed underneath our 'wardrobe' in the back kitchen side of the van, too big to go under the seats.
We have a 1300 watt coffee machine (which does peak at just over 1500 watts).
Wifey appreciates her hair straighteners and hair dryer, I like an 800watt camping toaster, and we have an induction hob, occasional use of a power drill(!) and too many chargers to mention. The majority of our cooking is outside on a Cadac.
Over the last year, on our various expeditions, our battery never went under 80% thanks to sun power!
EHU has become a thing of the past for us, but the facility is there should we need it! Potentially winter trips, but we are too 'soft' for those.
We had 2 issues, the flexi solar panel died on us, and the starter battery ran low until we fitted an Ablemail 12/2 starter battery trickle charger (£60 odd), easy for me to fit without the aid of a safety net!
Do you have the ability to put something unseen on your roof or do you have roof bars with surfboards or canoes in situ permanently? Will you be installing a pop top? If you are wait for that before you venture into the world of 'free off grid power'! (When I say free, it is once you've got the set up sorted)!
Perhaps we are just 'soft', but the creature comforts of home are sadly important to us!

Wayne, on the power front, our vans and our wives seem to have very similar capabilities and requirements!

 

[Drive Wayne]

Wayne, on the power front, our vans and our wives seem to have very similar capabilities and requirements!

Too much is not enough?!

 

[Salty Spuds]

This is purely my take on things & by no means definitive:-

Unless you’re going to invest a considerable amount of money & space in a large off grid setup with Lithium/high capacity solar/mains/B2B, then forget anything that requires 12V to provide heat, for whatever reason. A standard run of the mill camping 12V setup will happily run the “essentials” not the luxuries for a weekend. By essentials I mean, lights, fridge, diesel heater, USB charging. Anything more than that & you will have to sacrifice something off the essentials list. You can always sup your nice hot espresso in the dark staring at a dead phone. Either get yourself a stove top coffee maker like a Bialetti Moka, or wait until you’re on EHU.
Like I said, just my 2 penneth.

 

[DentedT6.1]

Thanks all this is very helpful. Given that faff and space are our biggest concerns (we're already losing lots of space because of the U Bed, I think a 300W or 1000Winverter (depending on what fits- to enable things like a camping toaster/kettle) and using the Nespresso on EHU only. There are a few things-like a pop top- that we want to drive and use the van for a year or so before we take the plunge, so I may add Solar and battery upgrades in that category too. @Drive Wayne thanks for your comment- good to know that we're not the only ones prioritising some creature comforts! I had ruled out solar purely because it seemed a faff and a lot of equipment, plus we're planning on a good amount of winter camping. That said, I will look back into it and chat to our converter to see what our price options are.

Does anyone know- if we went ahead with the normal setup (charger, L/Bat and EHU capability), if we want solar in a year's time is it as simple as buying more kit and fitting it- or is there anything we need to do or buy now specifically to ensure our setup can have solar added?

Thanks all!

 

[roadtripper]

It's fine to add a Solar MPPT charger alongside the DC-DC charger and a mains charger, they will coexist. Some folks choose a DC-DC charger with solar capability because it does save some space, but equally many choose a separate system as if one fails the other will still work. So adding one later would be fine.

The Victron MPPT is a very popular choice, if you are planning a conversion might be an idea to work out where you'd fit one and where you'd run the cables so you can leave space for it without needing major surgery in the future.

Running for a season without the "nice to haves" is also a good idea. Get yourself a notebook to live in the van and make a few notes of what works, what didn't, what you missed not having, neat ideas you spot others using and see what makes sense to invest in.

 

[Samro]

That said, the possibility of being able to use a low wattage electric toaster/kettle are very attractive to us, so it might be something to consider- I’ve seen kettles and toasters at 600W so maybe a 1000W inverter, or restrict our tidy breakfasts to campsites only! We know gas is massively more efficient… but it’s the little things we like

I suggest that the following battery isn't fit for what you have your mind set on. 600W is still a whack of juice for a small AGM to provide and bear in mind you still need a cold fridge 24/7:

- Enduroline Low Height 95Ah AGM 12V Leisure Battery (https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/p...ow-height-95ah-agm-12v-leisure-battery-800w-h)

You go on to say this, which doesn't really make any compromise at all, given that the proposed charging/battery is under-specification:

I think a 300W or 1000Winverter (depending on what fits- to enable things like a camping toaster/kettle) and using the Nespresso on EHU only.)

You seem to be attempting to make a compromise here, but this is not a big enough change to your planned spec to run a toaster or a kettle without killing the battery in months....,and absolutely no way will it run a hairdryer to keep Mrs DentedT6.1 happy! (And you'll both have warm beer and flat phones before the end of you camping trip too.)

If you attempt to run a small kettle from time to time, i reckon you will need a new 95aH battery every few months, whether you have a decent solar setup or not.

Your charging systems seem fairly undersize.
My suggestion to you would be that there are two fundamentally expensive things which you would be wise to consider now before throwing money into a spec which may not provide you with the result you ultimately want:

1. You should consider using the heaviest gauge battery cable between the starter/Dc-Dc charger and Battery to inverter as you can. This will make things future proof, as you will struggle to do this at a later date if you decide to up-spec hardware in your installation.

2. If you want to stick with AGM battery, you should seriously upsize the capacity if you wish to run a toaster or kettle if any size at all. Ideally, swapping out your proposed battery for a LifePo 100Ah battery will save a lot of regret later in my opinion.

Solar install can be done later, if required, but from the comments you've already made in this thread, I'd be looking at changing the battery spec if I were you.

Maybe do some pre-wiring for solar, but to be honest there's not a great saving doing this now the van's lined and insulated.

 

[Drive Wayne]

Don't forget the all important diesel heater especially considering winter trips. You're going to need a bigger battery for sure, lithium is the best with its greater usable capacity, 100Ah minimum I would say to keep that fridge etc running. You will be doing your bit to keep the economy healthy! There are a few good relatively cheap batteries out there that won't break the bank!

 

[Bav]

Not sure why anyone would consider not going lithium when designing a new power system. Yes, initial outlay is higher, but the TCO will be lower as you won't need to replace the battery as often. Lithium batteries are also physically smaller and weigh significantly less than an AGM battery with the equivalent usable capacity - an important consideration in such a small van.

 

[Samro]

12V 170Ah Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery

The Renogy 12V 170AH Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery is perfect for deep-cycle applications including cabins, solar/wind energy systems, UPS battery backups, telecommunication systems, medical equipment, and more.

uk.renogy.com

For your info. I have one of these under the seat in one of my vans and I really, really rate it. In fact I rate it so much that I would say that it is a close match for capacity to my gen 1 Roamer under-seat battery in my camper. This is a lot of money, but this would transform your install. Only thing I would say about these is that the battery terminals are annoyingly need a 1/2" ring terminals, which is a bit unusual)
Having said this, the larger 170AH battery is dumb (other than internal BMS with protections) and so a battery monitoring system is necessary. A better option for you may be 12V 100Ah Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery
If you spec this with the Bluetooth Module, you will not have to worry about a separate monitoring system, unless you want a permanent display somewhere.

On another note, the Victron DC-DC charger gets really hot and reduces its output accordingly when it is too hot. It is difficult to mount in a tight space and provide sufficient airflow over the heatsink. I have needed to fit an ignition switched fan to mine, which is sub-optimal.
Bearing in mind the Victron DC-DC chargers are reasonably dumb and not capable of being networked, I would go for the Renogy DC-DC charger if I were doing my install again as these are fan cooled and seem like a good option on paper, although I've not ever had any first hand experience with one.

12V 40A DC to DC On-Board Battery Charger

The 40A 12V DC to DC charger charges the 12v dc battery by 3-stage charging. The DC to DC battery charger prevents over-discharge and protect the generator.

uk.renogy.com

Hope this helps.

 

[DentedT6.1]

Hi all,

I suggest that the following battery isn't fit for what you have your mind set on. 600W is still a whack of juice for a small AGM to provide and bear in mind you still need a cold fridge 24/7:

Firstly- good points on the lithium vs AGM, we'll do some thinking- it seems it's coming down to a choice of upgrade the battery and put in a 1000W inverter (if anyone knows what dimensions battery can fit under the drivers seat?) or stick with the AGM battery and put in a 300W inverter. With the latter we can use our kettle/toaster/coffee machine only on EHU, and when off grid we'll be heating it up the old fashioned way!

12V 170Ah Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery

The Renogy 12V 170AH Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery is perfect for deep-cycle applications including cabins, solar/wind energy systems, UPS battery backups, telecommunication systems, medical equipment, and more.

uk.renogy.com

For your info. I have one of these under the seat in one of my vans and I really, really rate it. In fact I rate it so much that I would say that it is a close match for capacity to my gen 1 Roamer under-seat battery in my camper. This is a lot of money, but this would transform your install. Only thing I would say about these is that the battery terminals are annoyingly need a 1/2" ring terminals, which is a bit unusual)
Having said this, the larger 170AH battery is dumb (other than internal BMS with protections) and so a battery monitoring system is necessary. A better option for you may be 12V 100Ah Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery
If you spec this with the Bluetooth Module, you will not have to worry about a separate monitoring system, unless you want a permanent display somewhere.

On another note, the Victron DC-DC charger gets really hot and reduces its output accordingly when it is too hot. It is difficult to mount in a tight space and provide sufficient airflow over the heatsink. I have needed to fit an ignition switched fan to mine, which is sub-optimal.
Bearing in mind the Victron DC-DC chargers are reasonably dumb and not capable of being networked, I would go for the Renogy DC-DC charger if I were doing my install again as these are fan cooled and seem like a good option on paper, although I've not ever had any first hand experience with one.

12V 40A DC to DC On-Board Battery Charger

The 40A 12V DC to DC charger charges the 12v dc battery by 3-stage charging. The DC to DC battery charger prevents over-discharge and protect the generator.

uk.renogy.com

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the heads up! Will look into this, we'd like to keep the kit all with one supplier (as I think someone mentioned it allows us to know it's all aligned and we can monitor in one place- but I don't mind if that's Victron or Renology

Aware we can chop and change- maybe just use the lithium battery anyway even if we go with no kettle/toaster, or even see if we can relocate the electrics somewhere with more space, push some more cash into it and have a beefier setup.

Either way- thanks for the advice, better to thrash it out here than awkwardly in front of our local converter!

 

[Drive Wayne]

Price up a diesel heater @DentedT6.1 , you will thank us! Much better than lugging round an oil filled radiator taking up space!

 

[Salty Spuds]

Hi all,


Firstly- good points on the lithium vs AGM, we'll do some thinking- it seems it's coming down to a choice of upgrade the battery and put in a 1000W inverter (if anyone knows what dimensions battery can fit under the drivers seat?) or stick with the AGM battery and put in a 300W inverter. With the latter we can use our kettle/toaster/coffee machine only on EHU, and when off grid we'll be heating it up the old fashioned way!


Thanks for the heads up! Will look into this, we'd like to keep the kit all with one supplier (as I think someone mentioned it allows us to know it's all aligned and we can monitor in one place- but I don't mind if that's Victron or Renology

Aware we can chop and change- maybe just use the lithium battery anyway even if we go with no kettle/toaster, or even see if we can relocate the electrics somewhere with more space, push some more cash into it and have a beefier setup.

Either way- thanks for the advice, better to thrash it out here than awkwardly in front of our local converter!

We have a LWB conversion. Even with just 2 of us & minimal kit, space is at a premium. The only mains electrical gear we carry is a low wattage kettle/2kw fan heater/700w oil filled radiator & an electric blanket. The last 3 items, we only take in winter when we don’t take the BBQ. We’re currently sat in a P4N in Northern France on our way to the Alps. If we had to carry a toaster & nespresso machine, feck knows where we’d put it. I suggest (respectfully) that you get the best “basics” that you can run to, at the build stage, & then grow into the van. You may find that you have to make sacrifices other than financial, for your coffee & toast. I.e. notwithstanding the power needs of the appliances, you’ve got to store & carry the things. You can get a perfectly functional stove top folding toast maker & an aforementioned Moka pot. Personally I think the Moka makes better coffee than any fangled gadget, it’s also cheaper & produces less waste.

PS, going Lithium is a no brainer, I can’t understand anyone who wouldn’t in a new build.