Van electrics upgrade - Shopping list sense check?

[spenny_b]

Evening folks,

Typical me, wanting to tinker and upgrade a perfectly good campervan already....having done a decent amount of research and looking at what the latest models of kit are, I'd be very grateful if somebody (@Dellmassive ?) could give me a quick sense-check please, before I go and blow (more of) my pocket money. My buddy @Jeff G and I have chatted about it for hours and exchanged many texts, poor guy must be bored to tears!

Context:
Brand new van build by All Seasons, T6.1 SWB Highline T28, collected 3mths & 3.5k miles ago. All working perfectly well, this is absolutely not a "I'm disappointed" thread, and is something I had in the back of my mind from Day 1, it's just that All Seasons build "their build" as they know how, and that's perfectly fair.

Current setup:

• Hankook DC27 90Ah AGM leisure battery under drivers seat
• Victron Orion 12|12 DC-DC charger, also under drivers seat
• Sargent EC700 power unit + touchscreen controller/info display
• Sargent PX300 charger
• Photonic Universe PU1024B PWM 10A Solar controller
• Single solar panel on the pop-top - I don't actually know which manufacturer but it looks identical to the one sold by Van Junkies - my only thinking is that I'm sure All Seasons told me it was a 160W panel, not the 200W panel linked here. I'll clarify this week.

Other info:

• Dometic CRX50 fridge
• Dometic 700W microwave
• Webasto heater (air and water)

So, why do anything? Well, I use my van as my roaming office quite a lot of the time...you know, "digital-nomad" kind of thing. I was working at one of my favourite spots last week, flipping cold, so I had the heating on for 3-4 hours. First time I've needed to use it this much whilst not on EHU. Obviously I knew it'd run down the LB to some degree, this was a test as much as anything, but fair to say that with the fridge also on, the engine needed firing up to start getting things charged back up.

As mentioned, I always did want to install a Lithium LB and having read many of @Dellmassive threads (thank you) I'm going to need to address a few things to make this happen.

Another upgrade I want to do is install an inverter. Much as I like the portability of things like Bluetti and EcoFlow packs, I don't really want to cart around another unit. What I would like to do is be able to use the (hardwired in) microwave whilst not on EHU, as well as any power supplies for other gadgets, which can't run from USB.

I've just ordered the Renogy 1kW inverter, on special deal until the end of play today, and that also gives me their UPS function to auto-switch from Inverter to EHU, with a remote unit to switch it on.

• Planning on installing this under the drivers seat next to the LB, keeping the wires short, then running the 240v cabling discretely behind the kitchen units to the Sargent EC700, to ensure RCD's are in the circuit.
• Also planning on taking a piggyback from the back of the 2x 13A sockets out to the Renogy AC input, for that UPS function.

When I go for a Lithium LB (possibly a Roamer under-seat 230Ah but that is looking top-end ££'s), then I'll need to do a couple of things:

• Switch over the Victron Orion to change it from AGM to Lithium
• Change the PWM solar controller, as it's a PITA to change its charging profile.
  • There's a User Defined mode, but that'll be down to me to program that in, using a Chinglish app, and at the end of the day it's still only PWM controller rather than MPPT. For the cost of a Victron MPPT unit, I can't be bothered, I'll switch it out.
  • The MPPT unit I'm thinking should be ok with my current single panel is the Victron 75|15...some of this depends on what the spec of my panel turns out to be....but I'm wondering whether to go larger for the MPPT in case I ever add a second solar panel in the future?
• The Sargent PX300 charger doesn't list Lithium as a chemistry it can support....it gives a nice graph of their charging profile, but if it's not specific to Lithium, I'm not taking the risk.
  • Looking at the Victron Blue Smart IP22 12v/30A single output. Not seen any commentary so far on the 3x output version - I think that may be over-complicating things, single output should be fine, right?

Some questions....

• The Blue Smart charger - I see mention of Night mode for quiet operation. This will be mounted in place of the Sargent PX300, in my wardrobe area by the bed. The fact it has fans concerns me, I don't want to be hearing this thing in operation. Ideally, at all. Do I need to be worried about this, or do they run silently in all but the most depleted of battery situations?
• Whilst I'm at it, is it worth installing a smart shunt? Where would the "smarts" of a shunt plug in to? What does it buy me, over using the Victron apps for the Orion, MPPT and Charger?

I'm deliberately not going for an integrated DC-DC charger with MPPT.....I can't easily get to the wiring that's been built into the van and hidden behind furniture and trim panels, so swapping "A" for "B" keeps it easier.

Same for the Sargent power unit/MCB/RCD board - it's all neatly installed and integrated with a built in touch screen into the kitchen splashback panel, so that's staying.

So, inverter project first, then the battery swap with all the other stuff at some point in the next few months. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Thanks, Spencer.

 

[NicolasH]

Watching this thread with interest as I’m swapping my LB to lithium.

 

[Dellmassive]

sounds like a good plan,

and glad the threads have helped - Dellmassive’s "How I Done It" blogs.


++++++++++++

the Renogy 1kw inverter is a good solid unit, i use it myself in the work van,

the UPS pass through is limited in its capacity, and you need to cautions when connecting up with your current system.

ie EHU socket -> Inverter passthrough -> Consumer Unit & RCD/MCB -> 240v sockets

or Inverter after the CU & RCD protection? - im jnot sure,? (id have to draw it out)

its tricky as the PE earth arrangement needs to be different for on grid (external earth connected to vans chassis) & off grid (PE external earth not connected to vans chassis).

++

one work around is to just run the inverter stand alone to a separate socket/sockets in the van.


+++++

swapping out the AGM for a lithium is a no brainer,

stick with a known brand, and try to get as bigger unit as possible,

Renogy
Fogstar,
Roamer,



TBC - I've got too take the Bus to VW for MOT / Service as part of the ALL-IN,


ill be back soon. , . . . . . .

 

[T6 Syd]

Currently replacing my AGM leisure battery with a lithium one (Foster drift). I have the Sargent PX300. I asked both Renogy and Fogstar whether the profile was OK for lithium and got different answers. Fogstar said it would be Ok as the voltages are within the spec for the battery, Renogy said no. I think what that means is that it would work, to an extent, but would not be optimal for the lithium battery. I'm not prepared to risk premature aging or damage to the new battery so am putting in a proper lithium profile charger, it is about 1/10th the cost of the battery.

 

[roadtripper]

Currently replacing my AGM leisure battery with a lithium one (Foster drift). I have the Sargent PX300. I asked both Renogy and Fogstar whether the profile was OK for lithium and got different answers. Fogstar said it would be Ok as the voltages are within the spec for the battery, Renogy said no. I think what that means is that it would work, to an extent, but would not be optimal for the lithium battery. I'm not prepared to risk premature aging or damage to the new battery so am putting in a proper lithium profile charger, it is about 1/10th the cost of the battery.

Curious why you are asking Renogy about a Fogstar battery and a Sargent charger? Do you have a typo?

I've queried Fogstar in the past about the apparent statement that they support direct alternator charging and they were a bit vague about it. The risk of using normal lead acid chargers with lithium is that unless it has good current control lithium can really draw current.

I'd agree if investing in a big lithium lump spend on a decent branded charger that understands it.

 

[roadtripper]

Whilst I'm at it, is it worth installing a smart shunt? Where would the "smarts" of a shunt plug in to? What does it buy me, over using the Victron apps for the Orion, MPPT and Charger?

If you want to get a whole view of your energy usage they're useful. Most good branded items will have some form of data but that will be from their view in the circuit to their calibration, whereas a shunt will show you the exact energy flowing into and out of the battery.

Do you need it? It's not essential and if you are just using the van off-grid for short ish days then you'll be fine. If you want to have more extended off grid and keep an eye on things then it may be more useful and it's certainly a popular choice around these parts. Of course if you're a bit of a data enthusiast it's fun as well. If you're 50:50 put one in while you are changing the battery and in the wiring.

 

[T6 Syd]

Hi roadtripper, I asked both as I wasn't sure at the time whether I was going for the Renogy battery or the Fogstar, I guess I should have qualified that each manufacturer was responding about their own batteries, but I assumed that there wouldn't be any real differences. The no from Renogy, given their battery is supposed to be pretty state of the art, weighed heavily.

When the batteries themselves have bluetooth and Apps, do you still need a shunt and separate monitor?

 

[roadtripper]

One thing to check if you are in your wiring is the behaviour of the Sargent when your engine is running. Many of the integrated PSU systems designed for converter usage will shut down large chunks of the 12v system to comply with EMC regulations, which can be annoying if you rely on power while driving to recharge laptops etc in the back.

From a quick skim of the instructions your Sargent looks like it's optional using the system isolation switch?

 

[Dellmassive]

@spenny_b


yay, im back . . . they gave us a T-Rock to play with will the van is in,



so . . . . .

swapping out the AGM for a lithium is a no brainer,

stick with a known brand, and try to get as bigger unit as possible,

I can get you a discount at Renogy United Kingdom

Hey, if you're ever looking for Renogy United Kingdom products, let me know and I can get you a discount at Renogy United Kingdom. Here's a coupon if you need one now:

renogyuk.refr.cc

Fogstar Batteries | The UK’s #1 18650 Battery Retailer

18650 Battery Retailer | Batch Tested & Authenticated | Wide range of chargers & accessories | UK Based | 5* Reviews | Fast & Free Shipping - Same Day Despatch

www.fogstar.co.uk

Roamer 15% off all batteries








+

• Switch over the Victron Orion to change it from AGM to Lithium - Yes, easy via the APP
• Change the PWM solar controller, as it's a PITA to change its charging profile.
  
  • There's a User Defined mode, but that'll be down to me to program that in, using a Chinglish app, and at the end of the day it's still only PWM controller rather than MPPT. For the cost of a Victron MPPT unit, I can't be bothered, I'll switch it out. - agreed swap it out
  • The MPPT unit I'm thinking should be ok with my current single panel is the Victron 75|15...some of this depends on what the spec of my panel turns out to be....but I'm wondering whether to go larger for the MPPT in case I ever add a second solar panel in the future? - 75/15 will be good, but look at the 100/20 or 100/30 for a large lithium 200Ah+ and some additional mobile solar panels
• The Sargent PX300 charger doesn't list Lithium as a chemistry it can support....it gives a nice graph of their charging profile, but if it's not specific to Lithium, I'm not taking the risk. - yep, disable the charger part and fit a stndalone as below.
  
  • Looking at the Victron Blue Smart IP22 12v/30A single output. Not seen any commentary so far on the 3x output version - I think that may be over-complicating things, single output should be fine, right? - the IP22 30A is a great charger, it has a fan, but it only comes on when hot, the night mode cuts the output down to half 15A so it runs cool at night. . . . the 3op version just shares the 30A between three isolated terminals, so stick with the 1OP version, and look at a reverse charger, like the AMT12/2 that will trickle charge your starter battery from you 12v system.

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It --

[Guide] Battery Maintainer (for Starter battery) -- How I Done It -- Right so its that time of year again . . . . . . . . Winter & (Lockdown 2020) The van might be layed up not being used, which will lead to a flat battery in around 3 weeks. The cold weather doesn't help the battery's...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[Dellmassive]

Smarts:

well a shunt is a worth while investment IMHO,

there are many to chose from.

my recommendation is the Victron smart shunt. - no display to worry about as its all via the APP.

they are good to check the lithium SoC - as they do go out of whack.

they sit on the battery NEG terminal and monitor everything IN/OUT of the battery,

so can be used to monitor the power from all your charge sources, and the power being drawn from your loads. . . . .



https://amzn.to/47G1pCA







.....



and with a R-Pie or Cerbo, you can watch the van online. . .

heres the van now . . .

 

[Dellmassive]

heres the Roamer stuff. . .

Roamer LiFePO4 Gen2 230Ah Seatbase battery -- "How I Done It" --

Roamer LiFePO4 Gen2 230Ah Seatbase battery -- "How I Done It" -- Its a Lithium LifePo4, its got massive capacity @ 230Ah, its got massive discharge performance 250A/500A, its Bluetooth, its a Roamer !!, its exciting . . . . . its coming soon - the full test . . . . ...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[spenny_b]

Evening guys,

Firstly, many thanks for taking the time to pile-in and add commentary - really appreciate it, and as I hoped, lots of great info there!

@T6 Syd & @roadtripper - thanks chaps for the info on the Sargent charger and smart shunt. As you say, whilst I'm at it, it seems worthwhile to add it into the mix especially if it's a self-contained solution that just links up via the Victron app. Great point made about charging appliances and devices whilst driving and ensuring the EHU charger remains on as a power supply.

@Dellmassive - haha, as I hoped, a tonne of info there, cheers! Hoping you had a blast in the T-Roc today as well

Reassuring to know that my shopping list was "there or thereabouts"...as mentioned, I'll add the smart shunt to the list. Whether or not I add a Raspberry Pi into the mix, undecided...I do have a spare one kicking around....it's probably about 10yrs old now, but maybe finally I'll use it for something!

In terms of the solar MPPT controller - is it ever the case that I could get something that's over-spec'd and therefore not fit for purpose? Reason for asking is that in reading a Victron blog from teh guy who built their sizing calculator, there was one calculation example he gave where I think he said the PV voltage wasn't enough to activate the controller? Maybe I'm completely mis-remembering (it was 3am at this point)....but if that isn't the case, then for the extra few £'s to go up a model, it probably makes sense.

Regarding the inverter, that's where I'm scratching my head a little, as I really want to avoid having a second set of 13A sockets which are only hooked up to the inverter. Cards on the table, I'm really crap at cooking with a limited repertoir....more to the point, I don't actually enjoy cooking, so having the microwave to quickly slam a readymeal into whilst "on maneuvers" does make life easier. It's all hardwired into the van, no chance of easily unplugging it from an EHU socket to re-plug into an inverter 13A socket.

So, the other evening in my research I saw a couple of vids (@Dellmassive I think you linked to one of them?) with smart power switchover solutions. This one from Gadget John...

And then there's this DIY option....

Now, the first gadget was made by HTronic but it seems is no longer available....instead though, our friends at Victron look to now have the same thing in their range as the Filax transfer switch...

Filax 2 - Victron Energy

Switch sensitive loads, such as computers or modern entertainment equipment from one AC source to another with the Filax 2. Learn more now.

www.victronenergy.com

Would either of the above (probably the Filax, neater and supported) be the answer to the Earth conundrum?

Finally, loving that Roamer install under the seat....I did try to use your affiliate link yesterday but it doesn't seem to work? (or is it a duff cookie or pop-up blocker at my end?)

Many thanks again,
Spencer

 

[spenny_b]

Actually, just watching a few more videos and reading some of the comments, I wonder if one solution could be to use the inverter to supply a different 13A socket to the ones fitted in the van already (@Jeff G suggestion to me of using a different colour socket for identification/future owners), and then re-wiring the microwave into a multipole switch, which then feeds it from either EHU (earthed supply) OR from the inverter, as if it were plugged directly into the Renogy inverters socket.

 

[roadtripper]

Realistically have a good think how many times you are actually going to change over from EHU to Inverter before doing something complicated.

And how often you are going to use it.

It's perfectly viable to use it via the inverter all the time and rely on a good EHU charger to replace the charge in the battery - might actually be better for a lithium to exercise than to be held at float - and it's simple.

If you do go down any kind of switch route it's absolutely essential that you have one that breaks the existing circuit before making the next one, described as "break before make" if you do not then there will be a moment where you bridge both mains circuits together. This would be dangerous either way as you might try to back feed the grid if you are on EHU, or put all the apparently dead sockets live if not on EHU.

Keep it simple and safe.

 

[spenny_b]

That's another really great suggestion actually...use the inverter to power all the 240v mains, all the time....then just use the EHU to power the charger and top up the Lithium battery again (or when driving, the DC-DC unit to recharge the Lithium)...Hmmmm....

I think I may be a little borderline with the 1kW inverter I've just bought, dammit....the Dometic MWO240 is a 700W oven but I'd conveniently overlooked the peak current to operate it. There's nothing in the instruction book, but I have just emailed their support portal to ask the question.

Yep, re break-before-make switching, the Victron Filax 2 is absolutely that (as would be the DIY relay option I linked)

 

[Dellmassive]

the change over units are fitted here and there, but looks like they just deal with live and neutral switching and not earth.

have a quick look here for more info:

240v consumer unit earthing

I just found this on the interweb...... To comply with BS7671 sect 721 any PERMANENT 240 volt installation in a vehicle (including caravans and motorhomes etc) should have the incoming mains supply earth bonded to the vehicle chassis. It also worth noting that any metal gas pipes should also be...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[Dellmassive]

and check out my favourit night time read . . .

the BiBle as i see it . . . .

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Wiring-Unlimited-EN.pdf

 

[spenny_b]

Thanks again @Dellmassive , some homework for me to be getting on with. Kind of regretting buying the Renogy inverter already, it's becoming a pain in the arse before it's even arrived....

 

[roadtripper]

If you ordered it over phone or internet you're most likely covered by the distance selling regulations so you can just return it if it's not right for you, will only cost you the shipping

Consumer rights

Martin Lewis reveals your consumer rights, when can you return goods and when can you ask for a refund. Find out more on MoneySavingExpert.com.

www.moneysavingexpert.com

 

[Dellmassive]

The Renogy inverter is fine.

If its powerful enough for your requirements.

Maybe just fit it to a dedicated socket/s

And have your standard EHU feed Via CU to different socket/s

Or as @roadtripper suggested above. Use the inverter exclusively to run the sockets and have your EHU power a decent charger to feed the lithium.

Eg: EHU - cu - 240v charger - battery - Inverter - sockets

Alongside with your dc-dc charger from the engine bay.

.....

What % of time would you be off-grid Vs on grid?

That may give you direction on what way to go.?

If mostly on EHU, then id use the inverter to feed a separate socket.

If mostly off grid I'd run everything through the inverter. And add the charger.