New engine required - apparently - what would you do?

[Barralad]

So here is the main dealer assessment. I would be very interested in your valued opinions on best way out of this

"When investigating the vehicle for a potential miss fire, at first there was no engine warning lights on, therefore nothing to go by to begin diagnosis. We started off by carrying out a road test on the vehicle and whilst we were on the road the vehicle was bellowing out black and blue smoke from the exhaust, which indicates oil burning and over fuelling. On return to the workshop we repeated the tests that had already been carried out by another garage, so when testing the return flow of the injectors 1,2,3,+4 the readings at idle after 2 minutes were between 20/25ml where the limit is 25ml, so all injectors on an idle test were on the maximum limit. Flow rate test carried out again at fast idle for 2 minutes where the maximum limit is 65ml and injectors 1,2,3,+4 resulted in being between 70/75ml and are deemed un serviceable. Advice from our technical support team is, if all injectors have failed the return flow rate test then there is an underlining issue with the fuel system, the main components that cause this issue is partial break up of the high pressure fuel pump internally, which intern causes swarf to go around the fuel system and block all the major components. We have checked the fuel within the tank and there is no obvious sign of metal particles in the fuel but they are not always clear to the eye as it only takes shavings to cause the problem to begin with. Following this we carried out a cylinder compression test where the compressions can not be any more than a maximum of 5bar difference between cylinders with the pressures needing to be around 19bar pressure minimum across the 4 cylinders. Results from test were as follows CYL1=10.2Bar, CYL2=16.9Bar, CYL3=18.2Bar, CYL4=17.2Bar. As you can see there is a difference of 6.7Bar pressure between cylinders 1 and 2, yet cylinder 1 is also extremely low, with the pressure being this low it is evident that there is a significant engine issue internally. Our suspicion is putting all our findings together is that where the high pressure fuel pump has internally failed it has caused the injectors to block allowing excessive amounts of fuel to return and cause over fuelling where the unburnt fuel is then washing past the bores causing a potential hydro lock which may have bent cylinder 1 con rod, it will also cause the oil level to rise and exit through the exhaust ports and causing consequential damage to the catalytic converter and diesel particulate filter also."

I was told a very similar story recently where the van was just out of warranty and the same thing happened and the dealer just told them they must have used contaminated fuel so the cost was down to them. They owned it from new and had only used pump fuel.

 

[cgtmiles]

Then whoever buys it will join the forum

This is why I ended up blowing the budget and buying a new van to convert!

Sounds like I should have factored in extended VW warranty into the costs though.

I wonder what how this fragility and limited lifetime works on the eco meter. The environmental cost of building a new van every few thousand miles must out balance the falsified VW emissions savings over so few miles. The Cuban option is the way to go!

 

[crackon]

Been having a little think and talking to a few other people. An interesting point brought up was that if the injectors were failing then there would have been warning lights and fault codes in the system. I had another VW specialist, not a dealer, check it out before it went to VW for the full monty, and they found no other fault codes except the difference in compression on cylinder 1. Another mechanic reckons it's worth opening the engine up to see what's what as if there was no fault codes then they think it may be possibly a valve that's the major culprit, and the injectors while not maybe in perfect condition are still working OK.

Tempted to try that option, either they find what's wrong and can fix it, relatively cheaply (key word relatively!) or the engine will need replacing as we've discussed and so they'll already have it out and be half way to dropping a 2nd hand one in.

 

[paddy26]

Vw and the independent specialist mentioned fuel pump failure. Has this been confirmed? Has the fuel pump issue already been resolved?

 

[crackon]

Only VW mentioned fuel pump failure but as yet no concrete evidence apart from the injector readings mentioned previously and the smoke witnessed on the test drive.

 

[Barralad]

Only VW mentioned fuel pump failure but as yet no concrete evidence apart from the injector readings mentioned previously and the smoke witnessed on the test drive.

I will try and find out some more details on the van I was told about. I'm sure VW told customer it was fuel pump failure due to fuel contamination.
It would be interesting to find if there have been any more cases of this happening.

 

[mmi]

if the injectors were failing then there would have been warning lights and fault codes in the system.

I'm not sure about this. I had three injectors which were well beyond the limit - and no fault codes.
More here -->

[T6_measured] Injector failure

Keyword “loud knocking metallic noise from engine”. VW has published in September a service note which can be found with vehicle's VIN. The sound clips from my engine (150PS, EU6) with comments on 21 Oct 2017 in thread Tick over noise EDIT: audio files from the thread copied here as...

www.t6forum.com

 

[paddy26]

How difficult is it to get the fuel pump checked? It would help prove/disprove VWs conclusion.

 

[crackon]

If we take it that contaminated fuel wrecking the pump and then on other parts is the correct assessment and VW don't want to know because it is a fuel supply issue not a VW parts issue, then presumably this would not have been covered under warranty either?

 

[DXX]

I would have thought the oil and fuel should be correctly tested before making the assumptions

If I were you I’d get the analysis done on the fuel and oil before anything gets pulled apart.

 

[crackon]

Do you mean testing them both for contaminants? From what I've read contaminants less than 10 microns can cause a HP fuel pump to fail.

 

[DXX]

Do you mean testing them both for contaminants? From what I've read contaminants less than 10 microns can cause a HP fuel pump to fail.

Yes, 10 microns is big in an oil / fuel analysis. You certainly won’t see it with the naked eye.
Fuel for water and metallic elements.
Oil for water, fuel and metallic elements.
It’s a specialist job, don’t take the samples yourself as you will likely contaminate them.
VW stated that the injector failure caused the bent con rod and fuel dilution of oil / raised oil level. I assume that you witnessed the raised oil level on the dipstick?

 

[crackon]

Personally I haven't witnessed anything other than the misfire. VW don't know yet that there is a bent con-rod, they are AFAIK, basing their conclusions on compression readings, injector return flow readings and smoky emissions when driven.

 

[Loz]

VW don't know yet that there is a bent con-rod, they are AFAIK, basing their conclusions on compression readings, injector return flow readings and smoky emissions when driven

So it could also be the head gasket causing the issue between CYL 1&2 ?

 

[Mud Digger]

Surely the fuel pump fail would be not pumping to correct pressures if contaminated with water and if petrol that could cause the seals to break down , like in a mis-refuel and not causing disintegrating sending metal into the injectors

 

[Stay Frosty]

Probably a bit too much navel gazing here, the engine is going to have to come apart with head removal a bare minimum and a look up from the sump if a bent rod is suspected. Head off will reveal valve damage, bore scoring or least worst option a blown head gasket.
I'm not a mechanic but assuming that it's down to the guy to fix it himself with the local VW dealer obviously not interested.

 

[Mud Digger]

Probably a bit too much navel gazing here, the engine is going to have to come apart with head removal a bare minimum and a look up from the sump if a bent rod is suspected. Head off will reveal valve damage, bore scoring or least worst option a blown head gasket.
I'm not a mechanic but assuming that it's down to the guy to fix it himself with the local VW dealer obviously not interested.

it is @Stay Frosty and with a 16k bill attached for a new engine ... on a 50 k mile van just out of warranty ... the testers are saying a bent con rod the valves would be closed for hydro lock up for that to happen the piston now not reaching its full stroke to make enough compression they not said a damaged cylinder and its a shame the head gasket didn't blow to relieve the pressure

 

[crackon]

I think you are correct @Stay Frosty , so I'm probably going to get VW to test oil and fuel for contamination so we know what has got to where and get another garage to have the head off first. Then depending on findings probably 2nd hand engine if it really is beyond economic repair. If contamination is found then I guess any warranty would still be void whether 4 years old or 4 weeks old, 50k miles or 500 miles.

Can't really think of a better way round this one at the mo

 

[DXX]

Not sure how it’s done in the auto world but here‘s a few non invasive checks that can be done.

Smoke test combustion chamber with valves closed, if a valve is bent it will leak smoke.
As above, apply air, pressure drop test comparison across all cylinders.
With pistons at TDC use a depth gauge and compare measurements to check for a bent rod.
Boroscope / endoscope inspection for cylinder / piston crown condition.

Sump off:
Crankcase deflections.
Piston skirt thrust checks with feeler gauge will spot a bent rod.

 

[Stay Frosty]

Commiserations @crackon, my campers on a 17 plate with 40 odd thousand miles so anything packs up and I'm in the same boat.
I've got a mate with an independent garage and in your situation I think I would go ahead and get someone like him with to whip the head off in the meantime as money spent on a "virtual" post mortem with a VW main dealer is farting around and swallowing up your fixing fund money... while that was happening I would also be scanning for another lump.