How to know if software has been altered?

[Grey Area]

Hello folks!

I posted here a few weeks ago about a recently purchased T6 panel van which was sold to me B2B with faults. The used van business refused to take it back, and short of physical force or a years-long court case we ended up going down the simpler route of documenting repairs and small claims for the cost.

Here are some images of the EGR - which has now been replaced.

Mechanic says it’s running a bit off but showed no codes other than flashing coil… has suggested that the company which sold this van may have masked other faults by altering the software in such a way that the vehicle will not throw certain fault codes - certainly bad news should faults exist and be going unreported. The dodgy company does offer remaps, so has the ability.

I have spoken to the local VW van centres - who seem unable to do much unless you’re buying shiny new vans: they say they do not have the technology or expertise to assess if software has been changed, and also warn against reinstalling/reflashing software as it can brick the vehicle. Sounds like balderdash to me, but I’m coming from an IT background.

I am, therefore, looking for recommendations or suggestions on how/who can check if software has been altered and if it is possible to return it to stock to ensure we can trust the van’s ability to log faults.

Thankyee!

 

[Sasquatch]

It is balderdash.

The dealer can tell you how many times the ECU has been flashed, and also how many software updates it has had while in for servicing - if the first number is higher than the second the its beyond argument.

VW have famously dismissed warranty claims for cars tuned in this way, even when the stock software has been restored prior to taking the vehicle in. The counter doesnt lie.

Id be a bit worried taking my van to a VW dealer that were so thick they honestly believed restoring the software to standard would brick the vehicle. If that were the case the place would be littered with dead vehicles after a software update at the dealer.

Id find another dealer, or a specialist with access and the kit. I wouldnt argue or get into a discussion, id simply instruct them to install the correct software for the vehicle. Don't waste your breath having a dialogue with a service adviser (ie, telephone operater and invoicing clerk) that wouldnt know how to use a torque wrench.

 

[Howzat]

Remappers usually have stock firmware. They will check your current software and if an update is available they usually flash the update before doing the map.
So there is an alternative for getting stock software on your van.

 

[Kind of Blue]

If I had a desire to have a very deep understanding of the software and coding of our vehicles I would discus it with @mmi he has a very profound understanding of these thing but as said VW can easily see if something has been added or detracted because it always leaves trace even if wiped. He is more than helpful on here on technical queries and does loads of experiments and well run tests some times in collaborations with other like minded people on the forum. have a look at his pages.

 

[JDC]

I've had work done at the dealers last year and I was asked if the van had been mapped as they will do the latest software update. Definitely try another dealer or an indy.

 

[Alvaro.G]

Hola, puedo confirmar que esto es totalmente posible. De hecho, lo hicieron en mi furgoneta esta misma semana. Mi vehículo es una Multivan T6 de 2018 con código de motor CXEC .

La ECU es una Delphi, así que, aunque no puedan leer tu mapa actual, sí pueden descargar el mapa original de fábrica y actualizarlo mediante OBD . La herramienta que usaron para esto fue Foxflash .

 

[DXX]

Translation from post #6:
Hello, I can confirm that this is totally possible. In fact, they did it in my van this week. My vehicle is a 2018 Multivan T6 with CXEC engine code.

The ECU is a Delphi, so even if they can't read your current map, they can download the original factory map and update it using OBD. The tool they used for this was Foxflash.

 

[Grey Area]

Thanks for the responses so far guys

A quick update - local mechanic was eventually able to trace the elusive fault to a high-pressure oil valve which only opens at sustained >2500RPM engine use.

It still seems like a good idea to have the software checked, but the local VW van centres are less than willing to help - it's really strange. They either say it's simply impossible, or they say they'll check with their chief technicians (as if it's super complex) and call back... but then never do. I can only assume it's a policy decision which isn't to be relayed externally. I really wish businesses would be honest and direct - so much more efficient!

A local remapping business has said they can check to see if the vehicle has been mapped, but not via OBD. Apparently on the 2017 T6 panel vans the ECU needs to be pulled out and accessed on the bench for this. They've also pointed out that if we do this they'll not be able to tell when any changes were made. I am minded to do it, just so we know the state of things.

 

[JDC]

I was under the impression that a van remap was only done by OBD..Same as updating software and diagnostics.

 

[Alvaro.G]

Hi, that's right. For a Delphi ECU, like the one in my 2018 T6, you can't read the original file through the OBD port; you have to physically open it to get the data. But when it comes to remapping or updating the software, you can still do that directly through the OBD port. The process is a bit different, though: we download the stock software from an online database, modify it, and then upload it to the ECU.

 

[Marc R]

With VCDS it's very easy to check how many times the ECU has been flashed.

 

[Grey Area]

Hi, that's right. For a Delphi ECU, like the one in my 2018 T6, you can't read the original file through the OBD port; you have to physically open it to get the data. But when it comes to remapping or updating the software, you can still do that directly through the OBD port. The process is a bit different, though: we download the stock software from an online database, modify it, and then upload it to the ECU.

Ha - so it's a one-way port!

Thanks. If I want to know what had been changed on the current map (rather than just installing fresh over it) - pulling the ECU is the only option.

With VCDS it's very easy to check how many times the ECU has been flashed.

But frustratingly not when - which is a missed goal for the used market affectionardo!

 

[Grey Area]

I had some fun taking Tony's brain out before the rain arrived over the weekend. Taking it to a brain specialist this evening who can tell us what's on there and what's been coded... may or may not then update with clean install!

VCDS in the post.

 

[mondray]

Depending on what ECU it is if you wanting to know if it has bee remapped and potentially change parameters so it will run like mentioned above they need to physically open it up to flash it.
I had a caddy done in the past this way and like always you'll be able to tell if someone has split it open just by looking at it.

Be careful tho if you take it to someone and they split it open to check. Your claim might be void against the business you are trying to claim against. they might argue that you have tampered with it. Take loads of pictures.

 

[Grey Area]

Final update on this chapter...

Appreciate the support. You guys are very giving! Many thanks.

Happy to learn that the Delphi ECU was virgin factory and unmodified. I also learned that Delphi ECUs take 40-50 minutes to read, while Bosch ECUs take 40-50 seconds!

Next move is to get the van a fresh MOT and deal with what I think is a misfire. That'll be a new thread though!

 

[Ninj43]

Final update on this chapter...

Appreciate the support. You guys are very giving! Many thanks.

Happy to learn that the Delphi ECU was virgin factory and unmodified. I also learned that Delphi ECUs take 40-50 minutes to read, while Bosch ECUs take 40-50 seconds!

Next move is to get the van a fresh MOT and deal with what I think is a misfire. That'll be a new thread though!

Just some more info to hopefully help anyone going forward and I'll try not to over complicate things.......

As you've possibly discovered, it is perfectly feasible for an unscrupulous outfit to delete a fault code to mask an issue rather than fix it. Lots of tools will show you how many times an ECU has been flashed, but without obtaining a copy of the software present and having it analysed by an experienced tuner, there is no way of determining what is going on.

In most cases, a "proper" full read is only achieved in bench (aka service mode) by connecting directly to the ECU, not via OBD. Some ECUs do support this same full read via OBD though, just not those in our vans.

The Delphi6.2V ECU we're discussing here can be read and written over OBD but for most if not all tools, that mode of reading is known as virtual read (more of that in a sec) you cannot see what calibration is present or if any options/fault codes have been deleted (most often EGR/AdBlue/DPF/exhaust sensors etc).

Virtual read is essentially the tuning tool connecting to the ECU, asking it what software revision it has and then downloading a copy of it from the server, hence the matter of seconds read time....it's not actually reading anything it's just checking and grabbing an original copy of the software from the server. A tuner will then apply known safe tuning parameters to that file to effectively remap it.

Is a remap from a virtual read file a custom tune - well no it isn't, the modifications are not made to the actual software present on the vehicle.
Is this a problem - no, unless someone has been there before you and made a mess of it, you wouldn't know!
Is there any difference to the outcome/power - No, the same modifications can be applied no matter where the file came from.

A proper read takes longer as the tuning tool accesses the relevant part of the ECU and takes a copy of the actual maps present. Modifications are then applied to that file which is uploaded back to the ECU. The time it takes can vary dramatically depending on what tool is used. The file size we are talking about is a matter of Mb but the tool is checking as it goes.

As an aside in case anyone wonders, most tools don't actually support writing via bench/service mode on the Delphi6.2V so, no matter whether the file was obtained directly (full read) or adapted from an original file from the server (VR), it's going back on via OBD.

Bosch, can be either/or (unless you have a later 6.1 with MD1 ECU which is still causing problems for most tools as it has tuning protection).

Sorry that ended up being much longer than I intended, but hope that helps us to understand what's going on and perhaps stops anyone being fobbed off when they ask for advice from a prospective tuner.