Deeper dive into these fault codes

[CJW]

The vehicle referred-to in the Ross-Tech link above turns out to be a Golf GTI from 2016 - same manufacturer and year as mine.

 

[mmi]

OK, I think we're getting a little bit closer with this test. Here are two sequences that result in four scans:

IGN on, clear, scanA1, IGN off, key out, IGN on, scanA2

later...

IGN on, clear, scanA3, crank, scanA4, engine off

A1: 01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
A2: 01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 0010
A3: 01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
A4: 01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000

So I'm pretty confident that those test prove that it's the initiation of the system (IGN on) where the fault is present, and cranking has nothing to do with it. This marries with observed reality - it starts every time.

That's intriguing! I guess the status was "Intermittent, Not confirmed" again in scan A2?

The vehicle referred-to in the Ross-Tech link above turns out to be a Golf GTI from 2016 - same manufacturer and year as mine.

Some differences though:

The fault caused limp mode (MIL ON in freeze frame data)​

The fault was triggered during engine running (RPM, speed in freeze frame data)​

Different OEM fault code (15290 vs. 5273)​

Different ECU manufacturer (Continental vs. Bosch)​

 

[CJW]

That's intriguing! I guess the status was "Intermittent, Not confirmed" again in scan A2?

Yes that's right, see code snippet below from scanA2. Good spot @mmi - so do you think that means that it tested more than once in the initialisation?

5273 - Output for Starter Relay
          P0616 00 [036] - Short to Ground
          Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 260697 km
                    Date: 2023.10.03
                    Time: 18:02:13

                    Engine RPM: 0.00 /min
                    Normed load value: 0.0 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 67 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 23 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 12.280 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Starter control: terminal 50 feedback-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: relay 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: release conditions-Bits 0-7: 2
                    Starter control: release conditions-Bits 0-7: 86
                    Starter control: shut-off conditions 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: shut-off conditions 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 44
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 54
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 212

5459 - Control Circuit for Starter Relay 2
          P3048 00 [036] - Short to Ground
          Intermittent - Not Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 260697 km
                    Date: 2023.10.03
                    Time: 18:02:13

                    Engine RPM: 0.00 /min
                    Normed load value: 0.0 %
                    Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 67 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 23 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 12.280 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Starter control: terminal 50 feedback-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: relay 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: release conditions-Bits 0-7: 2
                    Starter control: release conditions-Bits 0-7: 86
                    Starter control: shut-off conditions 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Starter control: shut-off conditions 1-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of manual engine starts-Bits 0-7: 44
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 0
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 54
                    Number of automatic engine starts-Bits 0-7: 212

Also, you know, I wonder if we would naturally expect to 'Control Circuit for Starter Relay 2' errors if there's any fault in the circuit, and that fault in this case is 'Output for Starter Relay - Short to Ground' - in other words it's one fault that triggers another. If that's the case, we can probably narrow it down to a single wire that goes from ignition switch > fuse SC23 > Starter Relay 2.

Some differences though

Definitely differences but the guy owned it for a while before it his EML came on, perhaps it was there in the background? My EML has never been on, but the fault is showing as intermittent.

PS - thanks as ever for your input @mmi and @n1on

 

[CJW]

That's intriguing! I guess the status was "Intermittent, Not confirmed" again in scan A2?

I had a thought about the intermittent status: if the fault only occurs when initialising, then all those stop/start cycles would be counted as well as starts from cold. That might appear as 'intermittent' when in reality it is always a fault on cold start, and never a fault on SS.

Does that theory hold water?

 

[n10n]

So I'm pretty confident that those test prove that it's the initiation of the system (IGN on) where the fault is present, and cranking has nothing to do with it. This marries with observed reality - it starts every time.

Agreed

That leaves me thinking that it's either an ECU initialisation routine that is going wrong somehow, or maybe leading us back to what we all have suspected at one point or another, that there's a foreign device in the starter circuit somewhere that saps power when the IGN is first switched on, but then becomes invisible once it has powered-up properly. Could be a tracker or immobiliser box somewhere in the dash, which is the only place I haven't looked.

Hmm yeah. I guess I would try to look for any modifications to the OEM looms around fuse box, BCM connectors and the coupling station. Wrong kind of tape, wires that do not sit neatly in loom, cut wire ends hanging loose etc.

If it had a tracker they might have removed it but misconnected something on removal.

Everything is possible of course but I consider ECU fault way less likely than a wiring issue.

Could be even a coding mistake of something if the fleet had for example speed limiter coded in?

 

[CJW]

Could be even a coding mistake of something if the fleet had for example speed limiter coded in?

Hmmm. I'll do a scan for adaptations on module 1.

 

[CJW]

Different ECU manufacturer (Continental vs. Bosch)

Ah OK. Hmmmm.

 

[n10n]

Also, you know, I wonder if we would naturally expect to 'Control Circuit for Starter Relay 2' errors if there's any fault in the circuit, and that fault in this case is 'Output for Starter Relay - Short to Ground' - in other words it's one fault that triggers another. If that's the case, we can probably narrow it down to a single wire that goes from ignition switch > fuse SC23 > Starter Relay 2.

I read those faults as ”control circuit = coil side” and ”output = switching side”. But that’s just me, feedback from output might be considered as part of the control circuit if it affects operation somehow. In that case output fault would be a root cause but because controls can’t operate fully they would be in fault as well.

Pretty wild speculation though, we don’t know how accurate fault labels really are.

 

[n10n]

Could be even a coding mistake of something if the fleet had for example speed limiter coded in?

Hmmm. I'll do a scan for adaptations on module 1.

This was really just a thought or another angle to consider . Probably unlikely ”short to ground” faults would result from incorrect coding but perhaps just in the realm of possible if ECU supports different hardware / wiring configurations.

 

[CJW]

No clues here, but I'll post it anway.

;SW:03L-906-019-GQ   HW:03L-907-309-L ---  Engine
;Component:R4 2,0L EDC   H38 8440, Coding:01194012230401080000
;EV_ECM20TDI01103L906019GQ,003006,EV_ECM20TDI01103L906019FH_003.rod
;Tuesday,03,October,2023,20:58:29:49191
;VCDS Version: Release 23.3.1 (x64)  Data version: 20230421 DS346.2
;VCID: 00587C6A5A8F017A0FB-8054

IDE00259-Idle RPM correction,0.0 /min,2
IDE00263-Injector 1 correction value,BAAEB1H ,7
IDE00264-Injector 2 correction value,AZ1GBSH ,7
IDE00265-Injector 3 correction value,ARIIBIH ,7
IDE00266-Injector 4 correction value,A1IWDAH ,7
IDE00275-Particle filter initialization,0 Tkm,2
IDE01637-Service regeneration of particulate filter while driving,0 ,1
IDE01711-Blocking of particle filter regeneration,not active ,1
IDE02247-Static maximum speed limit,300.0 km/h,2
IDE02248-Individually adjustable top speed limit,300.0 km/h,2
IDE02632-MAS00478-Activation of static maximum speed limit-Reserved,0 ,1
IDE02632-Activation of static maximum speed limit-,OFF ,1
IDE02633-Deactivation of static maximum speed limit,00 00 ,2
IDE04158-Activation of start/stop function,active ,1


Elapsed Time: 00:03

 

[mmi]

so do you think that means that it tested more than once in the initialisation?

I believe the only thing we can conclude from "Intermittent, Not confirmed" is that the fault have happened (at least) once and the fault was not active when scanned.

I had a thought about the intermittent status: if the fault only occurs when initialising, then all those stop/start cycles would be counted as well as starts from cold. That might appear as 'intermittent' when in reality it is always a fault on cold start, and never a fault on SS.

Does that theory hold water?

I'm fairly confident that the ECU registers a fault only once in ignition cycle (frequency in freeze frame data) - if true also here it could possibly mask subsequent events after (supposed) initialisation event.
However, I'm not sure if clearing the faults would initiate a new "cycle" for fault frequency counter.

coding

Seems to be identical with other scans of similar vehicles - just known variations: cruise control, etc.

Pretty wild speculation though, we don’t know how accurate fault labels really are.

Agreed.

 

[CJW]

Well I’m due to get into the dash and under the battery for a different reason over the next couple of weeks so this thread has really really helped me know what to look out for and test when I get there. I can’t thank you two enough but I’ll start with THANK YOU.

 

[n10n]

One more thought: while waiting for deep dive under dashboard, why not try a capacitive discharge?

[Guide] Full Van ECU Reset (Capacitive Discharge) -- How I Done It --

Full Van ECU Reset (Capacitive Discharge) -- How I Done It -- The T6 is full of ECU`s, Modules, CAN Buses and Data packets . . . . . Just like your Phone or PC right. The motor vehicle industry has spent years with research and development making the modern car/van Data and electrical system...

www.t6forum.com

They suggest connecting battery leads directly together but I would rather short via any 12v bulb to avoid sparks. Also if you have a second battery and especially trickle charging back to main battery then this might need more consideration.

Grasping at straws but you never know. Zero cost and no real danger of breaking anything - just have to reset the clock and electric window modules afterwards: One touch electric window stopped working

 

[CJW]

I can isolate my solar panel, so I assume that I’d remove the neg from the LB, then neg then live from starter, and connect the starter wires together through an old headlight bulb?

Sounds doable and worthwhile.

 

[n10n]

I can isolate my solar panel, so I assume that I’d remove the neg from the LB, then neg then live from starter, and connect the starter wires together through an old headlight bulb?

Exactly

 

[CJW]

Lost the light today but this doesn’t look like it belongs there: an in-line fuse. Its cable is taped with black vinyl insulation tape to the small loom in the foreground. Wonder what’s at the other end?

 

[n10n]

The plot thickens

 

[roadtripper]

The plot thickens

It's another amazing detective story, we just can't cheat and turn to the back page to see whodunnit...

 

[n10n]

It’s fused! Don’t cut the red wire!

 

[CJW]

It’s fused! Don’t cut the red wire!

if I hear ticking I will RUN.