ST Suspension ST XTA Coilovers

It’s only a given that digital technology improves as the cost of that improvement is often minimal. A company developing physical engineered products needs to see a real reason to develop as developing new products is expensive.

However your point about the testing ability of the manufacturer is I think critical. For example, I’ve seen the testing rig at KW in Germany in person, it’s very impressive (and run KW on my Mini).

Ultimately though the improvements here are in narrowing in on a different set compromises for the conditions the van is driven in. What might work on a very low van in an urban environment might not be up to the task for dark country lanes when you can be forced into a pothole/grid by a logging truck.

I would argue that basic suspension technologies have not changed that greatly however, just a greater awareness that a wider spread of compromises is needed with the technologies that exist.
I have been on the KW pages and some of their kit looks interesting to me. I am interested in lift for Off Road use but also want to drive on public roads at a more normal height Driving a Caravelle 4Motion exec with diff-lock and hill decent ect Originally wanting air but it was put into my mind by CRS Performance the perhaps HW Hydraulic Lift might possibly do what I might need. If I could choose a set up with plenty of coil adjustment plus length of spring and have Hydraulic lift then that might be great.

I do find the KW online catalogue a little bit awkward to follow because it appears to suggest its main interest is in supplying lowering kit. Perhaps it is just a turn of phrase and it could do either. So when I present details into online vehicle details I get some packages coming up and one in particular with spring height adjustment along with damping control for both bump and rebound that started to tick some boxes. Then if hydraulic lift could be added an other box ticked it is then a matter of spring length cannot tell if they can offer different spring length for those needing to attain height and it is also not clear if the hydraulic lift be available or not or needing to have other things done to achieve that

I was wondering as you have been privileged to attend the KW site, do you have any notion if they might be able to do that or is my prose above not very clear and perhaps confused. :)
 
The hydraulic lifter system is very pricy. It might provide what you need but I can’t say for sure. Steve@CRS is the right guy to talk to. The system fits extra to the spring and was designed for supercars to access underground parking garages etc. I did find that the control on offer was a little limited.

I’ve run all sorts of air on my cars over the years but I’m firmly static these days. The problem with air is that the spring rate varies with height. It does this in the opposite way to the way you’d want. The hydraulic lifter kit potentially solves this as the spring rate remains constant (though the spring itself might limit your full travel, another compromise).

Hope that helps.
 
Yes I agree was initially going towards air, however the suppliers choice of dampers/shock absorbers is very poor in my opinion one has what they offer and that is it. Also as you have suggested air has a range of action where control tends to be better but either end of the range low can equate to sloppy , high to overly hard and not compliant, an exaggeration perhaps but a trend towards.

Hydraulic lift is approx 50mm that is 2 inches not sure if that is at the point of lift that the lifters move that distance or how much the vehicle actually lifts.
The springs also have a range of adjustment allowing the vehicle to be lifted higher or lower by turning a collar. This adjustment is not as fast or easy to attain on the road at the blink of an eye like hydraulic or air but it is there when required never the less. So for every day use that two inches on top of larger tyres might be enough for every day life for me, baring in mind I live off road and just to get in and out for daily life need need some additional lift to what I have now and 4x4 capability. Already it can scrape and in winter ruts are very much deeper. For times of washouts a winter hazard or extended travel else where, then I would probably wind the adjusters to max height,in advance, then together in combination should gain good total or max lift for clearance of rocks ruts and ramp over situations and fording. Wales can be exceptionally wet and rivers swell up long after rains have stopped.

Driving on road would be hopefully similar to what it is now. ............I have found no difficulty passing under barriers so far but never tried a multi story in this vehicle. Partially none near to here but oooch could do loads of damage if wrong estimation is made.

Price what is expensive. Air suspension is expensive not sure right now guess 8 grand 7 grand? out of touch, so how expensive is hydraulic lift, I have seen price of the Adjustable Damping/ Adjustable height springs.
 
It’s 50mm in ride height lift.

I live in the country too though not as remote as you. I visit those kinds of places regularly now though.

However, I’m only 2wd (and a Cali) so my compromises will be different to you. With your setup I’d just raise it and have as big an AT tyre as I could get on there. :)
 
I use 255/55R18 BFG KO AT 109 These fit comfortably on steel rims without touching and allow articulation for what it is worth not quite up to LR and not any where close to a UNIMOG impressive wheel disappearing act. Under axle clearance is quite good in fact not a real strait axle like early Landrover's but good, but it is underbody clearance that is a problem with such a low slung low body with some distance between axles even though SWB.
 
@Fivetones

Surely it’s progression and carnt really be stopped
Agree with what you saying that principles are the same but 1 set doesn’t suit all
Take a mobile phone for example principal is to receive calls and make them but the choice is down to the individual what they want it to do

I.e a Nokia 3310 or a all singing and dancing smart phone

LOL, too many choices in life
 
My point is the rate of that progression is limited by the barrier to responding to the demand. For digital that’s very rapid as the whole industry is predicated on small evolutionary change. Big physical engineered products aren’t governed by the same rules.

No doubt things move on but not as quickly as many think. However, as Oli points out the technology for developing each solution to the non-OEM suspension market is served by carving up the market. Hence too many choices. I’d still maintain most of this is marketing though. And again I’d agree with Oli that the technology has moved on, and that technology being social media and YouTube (look at THQs output, they know their market!) rather than the underlying suspension principles.
 
Ok, but what’s the difference in the technology? Or is this just valving/rate differences in the package? And moved on from what exactly?

My point is the rate of that progression is limited by the barrier to responding to the demand. For digital that’s very rapid as the whole industry is predicated on small evolutionary change. Big physical engineered products aren’t governed by the same rules.

No doubt things move on but not as quickly as many think. However, as Oli points out the technology for developing each solution to the non-OEM suspension market is served by carving up the market. Hence too many choices. I’d still maintain most of this is marketing though. And again I’d agree with Oli that the technology has moved on, and that technology being social media and YouTube (look at THQs output, they know their market!) rather than the underlying suspension principles.
What has moved on is the suppliers knowledge, more so than the product improvements , 6 Years ago suspension suppliers were fitting one kit to every type of van regardless of its size, weight and uses , The b14 debacle is a point of note . Pioneering on , to current times CRS have constantly been warning about one kit fits all scenarios and the down side of this. developing suitable modular kits to cope with the weights of heavily modified Vans particularly . We ship suspension set ups all over the world particularly for Audi RS cars , we remove the so called DRC Audi innovation and replace it with conventional parts , the results are better , My point being that if innovation is to maximise profit , marketability and not to improve product performance we simply dont need it . This is happening in our transporter market on a grand scale . Constant launches of upgrade kits , with new names, titles and appearance. No real improvements in performance or price at all .

I think that were we do need some innovation is in spring materials , the amount of broken springs ( all brands ) we encounter is proof that spring steel and design could be improved. ?

I would like to agree with Oli on one point he made regarding the incorrect lengths of drop links being used , Every one who purchased a B14 kit, (all models ) who didn't get longer drop links with the kit were short changed . That kit should have them and thousands of these kits were sold incorrectly with out them . There is a T U V certificate for these Kits and it clearly states on the Document that the kit isnt approved if longer drop links aren't used , All of the B14 s we have removed in our shop didnt have longer drop links fitted . All the clever ones out there will know what this meant and the affect it has on the roll performance. Maybe Oli could explain why this happened on a grand scale and why nothing was done about this ?

Customers who come to us for their suspension needs will know that i do try to profile each client to see what level of comfort they are expecting , I do this by asking lots of questions . Bad Example When a 75 year old client asks for comfort , but not lower , a KW STXA kit set at 60 mm isnt the answer for him , even with a Test drive and the so called sweet spot found !! This Poor chap wasted £2200.00 before getting to me a week later to sort it out properly. This is where suppliers could improve . I guess that if you only sell Coil overs , there will be situations that you cant help . Broader range of systems is needed not 20 kits that do the same thing , that isnt choice .

Fivetones . KW are one of only 11 companies ( I was told) to have the shock dyno you spoke about , i took this photo when i last did there Race car set up course in Germany . The other 10 I believe are in Formula 1 workshops . Its brilliant because it can simulate a complete Race track , or any road surface over and over with absolute precision .

Shock dyno.jpg
 
I tested a few vans and ultimately made my own mind up. Asked a few companies for prices etc and some were eye watering, some garages with good reps wouldn’t budge on equipment price even though I could buy it cheaper online, but when asked if they’d fit my own kit they wouldn’t/or trebled fitting price.

I test drove 3 vans. A friend’s T5 day van on Stance + coilovers with 18” steelies. Was actually ok, until you drove over a bump and nearly lost your teeth.
A Leighton van on B14 coilovers, semi-converted with R&R bed and kitchen pod on 20’s. Was awful, jarring and bouncy.
A dealership canpervan conversion on H&R coilovers and 20” alloys (and awful tyres). Was nice and compliant, but still crashed on bumps and was a bit wallowy round bends (but was fully kitted out).

In the end the purse strings won and I opted for MTS Technik coilovers, £450 from Darkside in Black Friday sales. Fitted and properly tracked up at Bram Racing. Running 20’s on low profile tyres and couldn’t be happier. Just as compliant as H&R’s but not as comfortable. They are a tad crashy but hey, they’re coilovers… beautifully made bit of kit and come with Eibach springs.
And the money saved went towards my electric setup.
So glad I didn’t just plump for B14’s or go bankrupt getting “the best”.
 
An important point about suspension mods that is often overlooked is aftersales support and warranty matters. I’ve commented on here before about this: VW had denied me extended warranty and I rang @CRS Performance - Steve asked to speak with VW directly and I passed my phone over. 5 mins later, I had my warranty! Now, that’s a supplier who stands over his work with pride.

Another time I had an MOT failure on a weeping shock. I rang @CRS Performance and he booked me in immediately. As I had a booking, I could legally drive up and within an hour they had swapped out the shock free of charge under warranty and replaced my brakes for @Nutexa Frictions.

On a side note, @CRS Performance chose to void their “return to manufacturer” rights by opening up the shock to see how/why it had failed! As a non-mechanical punter, it struck me how his engineering inquisitiveness was piqued by the shock failing, not just the excellent aftersales care.

Mums might go to Iceland, but people who care about their suspension upgrade go to @CRS Performance.

Oh, and you get to meet many fellow forum members over his kettle too (he does have one!!!)
 
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