Flat Vehicle Battery after 5 Weeks [Resolved]

[Grim Reaper]

Does your van have Stop Start? Does it have a shunt sensor on the negative terminal?

By the way, the picture above shows what not to do when you have a shunt sensor fitted. The wires connected directly to the battery post are bypassing the shunt and will cause the van to not recognise any drain through those wires, always connect earth's to a body earth point when the van is fitted with one of these sensors.

If you have stop start, and therefore likely a smart alternator, you would be better off with a dc-dc charger over the smart relay for charging the leisure battery.

 

[Glennpea123]

Does your van have Stop Start? Does it have a shunt sensor on the negative terminal?View attachment 204345

Yes stop start and there's a couple of wires attached, don't know diddly about shunts though

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Can you upload a photo of the battery showing the terminals and a close=up of the numbers/label on the top of the battery?

 

[Glennpea123]

Can you upload a photo of the battery showing the terminals and a close=up of the numbers/label on the top of the battery?

POSITIVE TERMINAL


AGM

Pretty sure batt has had it. On charge again and reading 6.23 V. Think ill go get a better battery and fit. Is it a problem with codes etc once battery disconnected ie, will it just be the radio or are there are codes they will pop up resulting in van not running right? appreciate your comments, ta

 

[Grim Reaper]

So that black block to the left of the negative terminal is the shunt, it logs charge and drain in and out of the battery. Those wires that are on the battery terminal itself need to be taken off and moved to somewhere else, there are a few places nearby that will work, they just need to be off that terminal, where they are, the van can't see any drain being made on the battery and thinks everything is tickety boo when it's not. The ones on the positive side can stay. Battery recoding is desirable but not essential, if you keep the same type and Ah rating, a like for like change will work, just takes a while for the van to work out what's going on. Things like windows will need resetting but everything else should be fine. Do a search for window reset if you don't know how to do it. If you decide to go for a bigger capacity battery then a record will need to be done to tell the van the new Ah capacity so it knows how much charge to dump into it. VCDS, OBD11 or Carista can all do this (I believe)

You must get either an EFB (not as good) or a AGM type battery for a Start Stop van.

 

[Glennpea123]

So that black block to the left of the negative terminal is the shunt, it logs charge and drain in and out of the battery. Those wires that are on the battery terminal itself need to be taken off and moved to somewhere else, there are a few places nearby that will work, they just need to be off that terminal, where they are, the van can't see any drain being made on the battery and thinks everything is tickety boo when it's not. The ones on the positive side can stay. Battery recoding is desirable but not essential, if you keep the same type and Ah rating, a like for like change will work, just takes a while for the van to work out what's going on. Things like windows will need resetting but everything else should be fine. Do a search for window reset if you don't know how to do it. If you decide to go for a bigger capacity battery then a record will need to be done to tell the van the new Ah capacity so it knows how much charge to dump into it. VCDS, OBD11 or Carista can all do

So that black block to the left of the negative terminal is the shunt, it logs charge and drain in and out of the battery. Those wires that are on the battery terminal itself need to be taken off and moved to somewhere else, there are a few places nearby that will work, they just need to be off that terminal, where they are, the van can't see any drain being made on the battery and thinks everything is tickety boo when it's not. The ones on the positive side can stay. Battery recoding is desirable but not essential, if you keep the same type and Ah rating, a like for like change will work, just takes a while for the van to work out what's going on. Things like windows will need resetting but everything else should be fine. Do a search for window reset if you don't know how to do it. If you decide to go for a bigger capacity battery then a record will need to be done to tell the van the new Ah capacity so it knows how much charge to dump into it. VCDS, OBD11 or Carista can all do this (I believe)

Thanks for that, very interesting. Van is booked in for tomorrow at Halfords, if it charges up. Will find out about them leads that require moving as well. I never had any indication that the battery was draining, see why now. So if I cannot charge van sufficiently, I'll have to purchase new battery and fit myself, as long as it will drive OK to take in and have things recoded?

Also, when you say wires can go anywhere, where exactly? Ta for your help

 

[sparkzer]

If you install a new battery, assuming it is charged the van will start/drive fine. however as mentioned, those additional wires on the neg terminal need to be removed and bolted to an earth point on the body as a minimum.

It is probably also worthwhile checking where they go to, as looking at how its beeing installed is typical of someone installing a 'split charge' relay which is not recommended on the T6 due to the 'intelligent charging' methods mentioned. it really should be a DC-DC converter.

 

[DaveD]

My policy with any battery over 5 years old, if there are any indications that it's not performing properly, change it for a new one, it's just not worth the hassle and it's going to let you down at some highly inconvenient point.

I have been quoted £186 plus £27 for fitting, and a free 5 point test.

But £27 to fit a battery? Bloody hell, that's a ten minute job.

 

[Glennpea123]

My policy with any battery over 5 years old, if there are any indications that it's not performing properly, change it for a new one, it's just not worth the hassle and it's going to let you down at some highly inconvenient point.

But £27 to fit a battery? Bloody hell, that's a ten minute job.

And clear the codes

 

[sparkzer]

I must admit, I've never paid anyone to fit a battery, but if that incudes coding the new one (something to confirm?) and if you don't have VCDS/Carista it could be an easy option.

Its not just a case of clearing codes though, there are a few steps which have to be completed so the van can manage the new battery correctly.

 

[Glennpea123]

If you install a new battery, assuming it is charged the van will start/drive fine. however as mentioned, those additional wires on the neg terminal need to be removed and bolted to an earth point on the body as a minimum.

It is probably also worthwhile checking where they go to, as looking at how its beeing installed is typical of someone installing a 'split charge' relay which is not recommended on the T6 due to the 'intelligent charging' methods mentioned. it really should be a DC-DC converter.

I had a 110Ah leisure battery fitted on a professional full conversion with a split charge relay, of which I know nowt about

I must admit, I've never paid anyone to fit a battery, but if that incudes coding the new one (something to confirm?) and if you don't have VCDS/Carista it could be an easy option.

Its not just a case of clearing codes though, there are a few steps which have to be completed so the van can manage the new battery correctly.

Yup include coding, happy for that to happen

 

[sparkzer]

I had a 110Ah leisure battery fitted on a professional full conversion with a split relay, of which I know nowt about

I suspect the installer installed the leisure battery in a way that would have been fine for an earlier van (T5 for example) but not for a T6 with stop/start, smart charging etc as connecting to the neg terminal of the battery is simply not done. It may be at the time, they was not aware they were doing it the wrong way and simply installed it how they had installed to many (older) vans prior.

The end result is there are 2 problems:

1) Your leisure battery is probably only charging to 70% of its capacity as the voltage coming out of your split charge relay wont be at the full voltage required to charge your leisure battery fully. if you charge your leisure battery by other means (mains hook up, solar panels etc) this may be something you can live with as those other charging methods will top off your leisure battery.
2) Your ECU is struggling to know your engine batteries state of charge as the 'split charge' is in effect robbing power out of the battery via the back door (those wires on the neg stud).

if you fit a new battery, remove the wires from the neg terminal and bolt them to the chassis, it will solve problem 2, however problem 1 can only be overcome by a DC-DC converter which basically 'steps up' the charge voltage to your leisure battery.

 

[Glennpea123]

I suspect the installer installed the leisure battery in a way that would have been fine for an earlier van (T5 for example) but not for a T6 with stop/start, smart charging etc as connecting to the neg terminal of the battery is simply not done. It may be at the time, they was not aware they were doing it the wrong way and simply installed it how they had installed to many (older) vans prior.

The end result is there are 2 problems:

1) Your leisure battery is probably only charging to 70% of its capacity as the voltage coming out of your split charge relay wont be at the full voltage required to charge your leisure battery fully. if you charge your leisure battery by other means (mains hook up, solar panels etc) this may be something you can live with as those other charging methods will top off your leisure battery.
2) Your ECU is struggling to know your engine batteries state of charge as the 'split charge' is in effect robbing power out of the battery via the back door (those wires on the neg stud).

if you fit a new battery, remove the wires from the neg terminal and bolt them to the chassis, it will solve problem 2, however problem 1 can only be overcome by a DC-DC converter which basically 'steps up' the charge voltage to your leisure battery.

Thanks for explaining it all makes more sense now. Taken on board

I suspect the installer installed the leisure battery in a way that would have been fine for an earlier van (T5 for example) but not for a T6 with stop/start, smart charging etc as connecting to the neg terminal of the battery is simply not done. It may be at the time, they was not aware they were doing it the wrong way and simply installed it how they had installed to many (older) vans prior.

The end result is there are 2 problems:

1) Your leisure battery is probably only charging to 70% of its capacity as the voltage coming out of your split charge relay wont be at the full voltage required to charge your leisure battery fully. if you charge your leisure battery by other means (mains hook up, solar panels etc) this may be something you can live with as those other charging methods will top off your leisure battery.
2) Your ECU is struggling to know your engine batteries state of charge as the 'split charge' is in effect robbing power out of the battery via the back door (those wires on the neg stud).

if you fit a new battery, remove the wires from the neg terminal and bolt them to the chassis, it will solve problem 2, however problem 1 can only be overcome by a DC-DC converter which basically 'steps up' the charge voltage to your leisure battery.

I have solar panel and mains hook up, solar panel charge is minimal at mo as no sun, so if I connect mains hook up will this help charge leisure battery, and therefore van battery should charge a little quicker via the charger? BTW not using a smart charger only my old one which is cutting in and out at mo until Volts are high enough to constantly charge (currently around 7 V)

 

[sparkzer]

I have solar panel and mains hook up, solar panel charge is minimal at mo as no sun, so if I connect mains hook up will this help charge leisure battery, and therefore van battery should charge a little quicker via the charger? BTW not using a smart charger only my old one which is cutting in and out at mo until Volts are high enough to constantly charge (currently around 7 V)

No, your split charge relay will only kick in when your engine is running (and due to the smart stuff, it might not or could kick out again even whilst your driving) however whilst your ignition is off the 2 batteries should be completely disconnected. best bet is a jump starter if your taking it somewhere to get a battery installed, or if you buy one and install your self it will fire right up.

 

[Grim Reaper]

To get the best out of it, and to avoid repeatedly throwing money at it in replacing batteries (leisure and starter) you need to do some research into best practices for van electrical systems. Have a chat with a few people at shows and meet ups and search on here for guides and advice on setups, Dell's How I done it guides are a good start but watch out for the wallet.

 

[Glennpea123]

No, your split charge relay will only kick in when your engine is running (and due to the smart stuff, it might kick out again even whilst your driving) however whilst your ignition is off the 2 batteries should be completely disconnected. best bet is a jump starter if your taking it somewhere to get a battery installed, or if you buy one and install your self it will fire right up.

Tried jump leads this morning, don't think they were up to standard for a diesel, leads were hot and started to smoke and melt, now in the bin and heavy duty ones on way

 

[sparkzer]

Tried jump leads this morning, don't think they were up to standard for a diesel, leads were hot and started to smoke and melt, now in the bin and heavy duty ones on way

with your battery being so low, almost all of the power to crank will be coming through the jump leads, so yes they will need to be pretty beefy.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

with your battery being so low, almost all of the power to crank will be coming through the jump leads, so yes they will need to be pretty beefy.

Which ever jump leads you use, it’s worth waiting for 15-20 mins with them connected and the donor vehicle running to charge the dead battery. This will take the load off the jump leads when attempting to start.
You are connecting the negative to a good earth point on your vehicle rather than the negative battery terminal?

 

[Glennpea123]

Which ever jump leads you use, it’s worth waiting for 15-20 mins with them connected and the donor vehicle running to charge the dead battery. This will take the load off the jump leads when attempting to start.
You are connecting the negative to a good earth point on your vehicle rather than the negative battery terminal?

Ah no on the terminals, oops!

 

[Glennpea123]

All sorted now, thanks to all who commented