VW T5.1 being upgraded to T6 4motion running gear

[rolla]

Well thats an intersting start here .... just as the title states ....
so my 15plate T5.1 has a knackered DSG box, n/s stub axle moves up/down, massive clonk/bang out of park etc ... vibration in high gear at low speed .. swishing sound from a dry n/s diff bearing...
I couldn't find the same code box except for order a new one from vw commercial ... er... no we wont be doing that...
So what ever dsg box I put in it, it may need some coding done in VCDS or even ODIS, as it is going to be a later unit, 2nd hand, or rebuild mine myself, now what with all the suspected metal churning through it, rebuild is not going to be prudent ... so a box out a stripped/broken vehicle is only option.
So I picked up a T6 late 17plate complete 4motion drivetrain for mine ....
It has 1200 miles on it, was parted from the engine, someone else is happily running that, so happy days it begins ....

I checked ETKA for cross referencing and parts I may need, just unsure about rear engine mount, but will tackle that when it is in.
I also checked the gearbox codes in etka, it is 7F in all transporters.
I also checked VCDS scans prior to jumping in, all DQ500 boxes have same hardware number, software number etc, this is from mine below, I checked all way up to 2020 vcds scans, all the same except for slightly later revision, but then I seen my revisions later than a 2016 scan...

Address 02: Auto Trans (J743) Labels:. 0BH-927-711.clb
Part No SW: 0BT 300 045 R HW: 0BH 927 711 C
Component: DSG DQ500-7F H08 2241
Revision: 00H08V01
Coding: 0014
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
ASAM Dataset: EV_TCMDQ500021 001001
ROD: EV_TCMDQ500021_VN75.rod
VCID: 4487F917CF9BD6ABA7-8010

Component last 4numbers change also(mine is 2241)....
I have had discussion with VW master tech, he could not tell me whether a later gearbox could be used, he didn't know, I have searched and searched and not really come across any answers..?
I did see a video where someone updated a dq250 with the later box..... yeah plugged right in... no error codes .. no eml ... unsure if he even did basic settings but it went perfectly well.

So I do not see a reason why I cannot upgrade from a NZQ coded DQ500 up to a SDF coded DQ500, I am just putting in a later revision firmwared unit, to the ecu....
failing that I can always bodge the situation and slam my Mechatronic unit onto the box.... but I would rather not contemplate that at this stage.
If anyone can give me any advice, it would be appreciated .... all hecklers can now fall to the back please ... you will have your chance .....

It is a case of get the gearbox swapped to the 4wd system with bevel box installed, run the vehicle on that until I can get the Haldex carrier mounted and the correct wiring back up to the ecu etc ... which is where I will need a hand.

I do need an english current flow diagram of a T6 haldex connector(5 pin on haldex, no lockers) back inot the main ECU plug and term 15.
It's + power, return, Can H & Can L then term 15 connection, but I am unsure where to drop the connections into, so any help is greatly appreciated ....

 

[Pauly]

Interesting project, i have quite a few T6 scans so could help out if you need to compare coding etc and im sure @mmi will be on the case too !

I could never quite figure out the gearbox codes either, mine got changed and the dealer was adamant it had to be a PSP box same as came out but gave no rhyme or reason for it, basic settings/adaptions never seemed to make a huge difference on mine as it was reset several times, just seems to remove the 500 mile memory they have ??

Keep us informed how your getting on

 

[Pauly]

Oh and if you go VIP membership then all the wiring diagrams and stuff will be available to you and if theres anything missing just request it and one of us will add what you need

 

[rolla]

Hi Pauly thanks for your replies, I should have posted here first instead of wasting little resources on elsawin, I already had the german version which i grumbled about years ago...

DSG boxes ... yeah I think that is a massive sales pitch ... it hold the same values, hardware, software, component, but later revisions, as said I seen a t6 16 plate with earlier revisions than mine.
T5/T6 dsg boxes aren't coded to immobiliser, as in advanced info in vcds, on 02 module, the dsg info, it holds no chassis number, but audis and others do hold immo chassis numbers in the eeprom.
So I checked as much as I can, if it goes belly up, then it will be time to swap the mechatronic unit over back to the original unit, after it's had a damn good clean out, but lets see first, I got a horrible feeling it will just plug in, may be a little vcds tweak ... at what I am not yet sure, but basic setting run through at very least.

I may start on it tomorrow ....

 

[Pauly]

I was told old and new mechatronics are not the same, old ones can be drained and filled and newer type ones are supposed to be sealed ?
Not sure of that would affect compatibility though ?

 

[rolla]

I was told old and new mechatronics are not the same, old ones can be drained and filled and newer type ones are supposed to be sealed ?
Not sure of that would affect compatibility though ?

Okay I will check that on etka, see if anything comes up, year changes etc ... cheers

 

[rolla]

Okay I will check that on etka, see if anything comes up, year changes etc ... cheers

I just had a check through the 2 variations on the DSG wiring files on here, if I am reading it correctly, the mechatronic plug doesnt change, associated wires going back to the ECU change, additions in ABS unit etc, but no change to mechatronic post connector, bridged wires in the loom take signals to other components ... I feel happy with that, master tech did also mention about temp sensor additions, the box I have was made 2years later so think I should be okay...

 

[rolla]

Its slowly coming apart, I can't see how I am going to squeeze the bevel box in ... it will fit but tight, thinking I will have to mod something and fab up some suppport for dpf,
I drained the oil, pretty clean for 144k, didnt look contaminated funnily enough but pretty dark in it's masses.
Just stumped up for a new DMF.... Sachs unit come in at £278 ... hopefully all good.

Any advice etc is more than welcome, I have never touched a 4motion before in my life ... I had audi quattro,s2,s4's before ..... so I understand vcds a little.... mechanical stuff is not any issue .... as apparent I dont mind a challenge if beneficial.

 

[rolla]

pics showing o/s driveshaft splines gone, circlip disintegrated into the dust you see in the driveshaft/diff output on o/s ... also shiney spot where the prop was polishing it's own turd ....
Yesterday I dropped s/frame, took the box out... minging ...
just waiting for new dmf delivery, get few bits at vw tommorrow, ready to get together, wll spend time seeing if my highline van has the rear loom & plug to d pillar, think I have the haldex connections sussed, just need to see where they present themselves in my van ...

 

[JOG]

I salute your bravery taking this challenge on! Well done you

 

[rolla]

I salute your bravery taking this challenge on! Well done you

Cheers JOG.... well it's a case of I do ... or lose out alot of my own invested money .. which isn't coming round much in last year ...
I could have done we buy dodgy vans.com, but then I start over again on a lower value pig ... don't like downgrades ... hence 4mo ..
I'm hopefully gonna layout the 'upgrade components' today ... keep up the motivation whilst parts wait ....
anyone need a qood dsg box ... 2 careful owners ... cleans up well ... shifts perfect

 

[rolla]

I ran through locations in my van for the referenced multi-pin wiring loom locations to jump onto for my 5pin haldex connector, lower D pillar and the brown connector under passenger seat....
I found both plugs, both empty on the pin no's I have, holding said power/earth/term 15/can-H & can-L ....
so basically I have to run the 3 wires .. term 15 & 2x can wires into the main points in the loom(s) where I can, then power/return .... crudely put ....

Can anyone assist me with where to run these into ...? Plugs, pins, ECM/BCM ...?

This slide below I found on another forum, it is the clearest pin-out for Haldex gen5 wiring, but then again it is the most blurred capture of any wiring diagram I have seen ....




I need to know where Term 15 block is, where B383(can-h) & B390(can-l) in my T5.1 highline van loom, so I can run wires, this is under battery compartment I assume, then pins etc ... Can anyone assist me please ..??

 

[rolla]

I have all the electrical slides from the VIP section in this forum here, they are all nice and clear, but the wiring 'disappears' into 'the main loom' - same as it does in it's descriptions ... such as can high/low - as above they are B663 & B664 ........ Im certainly not finding those ... under the dash ... lol ..

 

[rolla]

So connection B383 & B390 in this slide, where do they present themselves ... ?

 

[Pauly]

Loom joints are exactly that, cable joins buried within the wiring loom, dont think they are meant to be found

Terminal 15 is a reference not a physical thing
Terminal 30 = permanent 12v
Terminal 15 = ignition 12v

Canbus wiring is a network and runs through the van, can bus cables are always twisted pairs, if you look at the relevant diagram then check the colour of the two wires (looks like orange/black and orange/brown) in your diagram and anywhere you find those two coloured cables twisted together you can utilise them

Just be aware that vans often have more than one canbus network and each network will use its own colour scheme, your van will prob have power train canbus (or/bl and or/br) and also convenience canbus, likely orange/green and orange/brown

The wiring diagrams dont disappear, where a line terminates into a numbered box the number will corrolate to that numbered line going along the bottom edge of the diagram, it basically sends you to another page where the wire carries on

If you go to erwin and pay a fee (less than a tenner) you will be able to enter your VIN and download the wiring diagrams for your exact model/equipment

 

[rolla]

Pauly thank you for demistifying that a little for me ... yes exactly what I needed to hear,
Term 15 is switched pos, the canbus I understand, it's 1 & 0 in a bit sequence appropriately read and decoded by the ecu/modules,
I was unsure whether to "break into it" or to "get on the bus" at a termination, that termination being specific pins located on ECU/BCM plugs,
I can go deeper into that when I got a bit more time to delve, I will be on that soon though.
I am unsure whether I have seen anu EPC17 pin-outs in the VIP section... erwin can do that though too...... I appreciate I dont have all wiring guides and they do continue ... totally disjointed affair on a laptop or mobile...

Thank you again buddy .... I'm gonna search ABS lines, steering angle sensor and handbrake... they'll associate to the powertrain databus channels ...

 

[rolla]

So my replacement dsg box is with stop start build, which means the engine has a spacer plate, 11.5mm to face the gearbox, the clutch pack on the DQ500 is specific to stop start build as it is sitting aprox 15mm prouder, which actually extends past the bell housing face line, so what does all this mean...?
You cant use this clutch pack with the dmf flywheel I have on my engine...... !
There is more than one way to skin this rabbit ... change clutch packs over, but then I need lifting hooks, new cover, clips, tool to form the gasket etc ..
Or just get the right dmf flywheel ... which I think is 04L 105 266 AA ....
Any input is helpful .....

 

[Pauly]

Whats your engine code ?

 

[Pauly]

CAAA,CAAB,CAAC,CAAD,CAAE



CCHB,CCHA,CFCA



CCHB,CCHA,CFCA

 

[rolla]

Hi Pauly, thanks for jumping in on this ...
So I have CAAC engine, which is holding DMF part number: 03L105266AM
The gearbox I have is fitted with stop/start from factory build, it is from a 2017 T6 4motion, I was told engine was 204bhp ... all I can get about it.
The engine wont tighten up to the block as the input shaft on the box is 15mm deeper in spline and spigot, it extends out 15mm further(aprox)
I have both stop/start and regular starters, stop start is larger spline, but aprt from that both statrters throw and mount exactly the same.
SO I will use the spacer plate I have from the 2017 dsg set up, but need the deeper DMF with the teeth sitting on the outer edge.... (this is gained from measuring the starter throw, depth of the mounter DMF and seeing where the meet point is, it is just about touching on full extent, starters throw out 15mm(If I rememeber correctly..) ..

I been down to VW commercials last 2 days over this, they cant put much to it, except that I am looking at 04L105266AA

Thats from a CHXA engine if I have the code correct ....