Attaching semi-flex solar panel using twinwall polycarbonate

KrakFox

Member
So bear with me.
Been looking at getting this (btw, any thoughts on how good these ones are where the wires are discreetly positioned under the back of the panel?): Solar Technology – 150 Watt Flexi Solar Panel – Black Rear Exit – STPVF150RBS - Batteries and Solar
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...And after watching people Sika-ing their panels down and creating lots of air pockets/traps/loops with haphazard zig zags and whatnot, it was playing on my mind how best to avoid 'ceilings'/pockets where hot air can get trapped (like airpockets in underwater caves) - given that warm air will travel upwards on a sloped pop top.

Add to that, I was wondering it it would be good to have the twinwall with the vents horizontal - so the entire sides can vent and there's actually more entries and exits for airflow, not sealing the edges closed with sika. But I wonder if the wind going down all those open holes would create drag/vortexes that would actually pull at the panel as the air rushes by.

So attached is my compromise to deal with both the above thoughts:
  • There's a shallow ridge down the centre of my pop top which i hope to raise the panel up off of using thicker twinwall than the height of the ridge, and have no Sika here at all - reason being is all that central section would be prone to overheat if stuck down to the poptop, as though i wasn't using twinwall at all. It will also create a great amount of airflow upwards when at rest, but not much windflow downwards when driving due to the shielded entry at the front , see next point (i hope)
  • Front of the panel that takes the brunt of the wind force when driving, is fully sealed off.
  • Then there's a small section of horizontal twinwall, to allow for a good amount of exit space for hot air, but hopefully not much of an easy entry for wind (probaly would pull air OUT of this section as the air rushed by)
  • Then the most part would be vertical twinwall, with plenty of area to anchor with Sika
  • Then a small section of horizontal twinwall to give nice entry for cool air, thus creating a chimney effect across the entire construction - cool air into bottom, hot air out of top.
  • Note the gap in sika right at the bottom centre where the ridge is - this is to allow even more cool air up/allow good exit for windflow when driving
  • The sika shown is the sika used between the solar panel and the twinwall (the sika for the twin wall to the poptop would be put on using upward facing diagonals similar to the main section in the diagram - again allowing for no places for any hot air to get trapped even under the twinwall)
  • Once the panel is flattened and the Sika spreads, there will be be very tiny gaps/channels where there is no sika, where hot air can flow up and away.

Yes I think i have ADHD. Yes I may be over thinking this - but just have to, cuz it's what i do!! :D

TL:DR: I'm driving myself mad over analysing Van additions...as usual

Screenshot 2022-08-16 at 17.17.22.png
 
Am I missing something, or haven’t you just gone to a load of trouble to create a rigid panel out of a flexible one?
Yes, you're missing the fact that the panel plus 4mm of twinwall will be less than a CM high - and still VERY low profile.

^^^^WHS. Just buy a rigid panel!:rolleyes:
<1cm thick low profile, but still with air ventilation - as opposed to a big heavy, in my opinion, ugly, rigid one
 
Rigid ones have a very low failure rate unlike the semi-flexible ones. I would have a rigid one over flexible any day - one has been on my boat for over 20 years and still going strong.
 
Yes, you're missing the fact that the panel plus 4mm of twinwall will be less than a CM high - and still VERY low profile.
Fair enough, I thought you were using the twin wall stuff used for conservatory roofs etc. Be interesting to see if it lasts any longer than a conventional installation.
 
Rigid ones have a very low failure rate unlike the semi-flexible ones. I would have a rigid one over flexible any day - one has been on my boat for over 20 years and still going strong.
100% know what you're saying. I don't like how the rigid ones look at all. I'd rather go without. the high failure rate can easily be due to bad fitting regards ventilation, hence the whole point of my post: adding very effective ventilation to try and eleminate failure due to heat damage
 
Fair enough, I thought you were using the twin wall stuff used for conservatory roofs etc. Be interesting to see if it lasts any longer than a conventional installation.
Haha I did wonder :) - so I thought Id add more info - no surprise you thought it was a mad idea! Haha
 
Re: "thoughts on how good these ones are..." , I installed a rear entry 60W PVLogic panel back in May when it was released - incidentally bought from Batteries & Solar; I have had some great experiences with the team there.

I cannot speak to the longevity of the panel though after flip-flopping as to whether to go for a rigid panel for over a year, I could not resist finally fitting a PVLogic rear entry one when this (60W version) was released, as I ultimately wanted something flush to the roof, completely black and with no visible cabling. I did contemplate different fixing arrangements though eventually installed with Sikaflex in the pattern suggested by the manufacturer.

I figured that for my needs, 60W would 'hopefully' be adequate since the main load on my leisure battery is a fridge - and I decided that I could easily add a second panel, or modify with a larger panel / second leisure battery if needed at a later date.

I spent about a week and a half parked-up on a recent sailing trip with EHU as backup if needed - and am pleased to report that I did not plug in once, as my tiny panel was doing a great job and peaking at its full 60W rating most days according to a Victron SmartSolar MPPT controller.

There always was an argument for me to go for the panel you are considering, though to be fair the little 60W panel has exceeded my performance expectations so far and so I would certainly anticipate good performance from the larger panel - although it is early days and so it will be interesting to see how things go in the future, though I am cautiously optimistic...!

Screenshot_20220816-203238_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220816-200609_Gallery.jpg
 
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Couple of observations ...

The Sikaflex Bonding needs to be 1-2mm thick - I used spacer foam strips to maintain a small offset when I stuck my panels down.

If the bond is too thin then the shearing forces created by the different co-efficients of thermal expansion of the panel and the twinwall will cause a very thin sika bond to fail - just like the thinner sealant areas in your bath/shower always come off first - you also have a second bond between the roof and the twinwall which needs to be robust too.

If you allow water to collect between the panel and the surface it is bonded to then in winter this will freeze and expand, stressing your panels. I stuck my panels down using the method described in a number of sikaflex "how to" videos e.g.
and then ran a sealant bead round the exterior edge of the panels to prevent water ingress. The trapped air expanding and contracting will not stress the panels like freezing pockets of water will.

Don't worry about the wind effects, if properly bonded there will be no problem. Check out this video to see how difficult it is to remove a bonded panel .... it's German but the video speaks for itself ...
... wind will not rip it off.

I would not get too worked up about creating cooling channels with sikaflex, they will just collect dirt, debris and water over time and using the thermal mass and heat conduction of the aluminium pop-top is enough for my install IMO.

Finally, I don't know which pop-top you intend to bond it to, but the VW California (mine is a 22MY Ocean) has a foam sandwich with the headliner bonded to the inner surface of the aluminium roof. To go any distance horizontally through the foam sandwich is practically impossible, so the hole where the wires come through needs to be near the edge of the bonded on headlining/foam sandwich.

Here are some pics of my standard panels glued to an aluminium carrier solution .... anyway, just my experiences - so far all is good, including car washes and 200 km/h on the german autobahns. I would have liked to hide the cables completely, but everything is a compromise.

20220801_080210.jpg

20220816_100432.jpg20220812_171117.jpg
 
Re: "thoughts on how good these ones are..." , I installed a rear entry 60W PVLogic panel back in May when it was released - incidentally bought from Batteries & Solar; I have had some great experiences with the team there.

I cannot speak to the longevity of the panel though after flip-flopping as to whether to go for a rigid panel for over a year, I could not resist finally fitting a PVLogic rear entry one when this (60W version) was released, as I ultimately wanted something flush to the roof, completely black and with no visible cabling. I did contemplate different fixing arrangements though eventually installed with Sikaflex in the pattern suggested by the manufacturer.

I figured that for my needs, 60W would 'hopefully' be adequate since the main load on my leisure battery is a fridge - and I decided that I could easily add a second panel, or modify with a larger panel / second leisure battery if needed at a later date.

I spent about a week and a half parked-up on a recent sailing trip with EHU as backup if needed - and am pleased to report that I did not plug in once, as my tiny panel was doing a great job and peaking at its full 60W rating most days according to a Victron SmartSolar MPPT controller.

There always was an argument for me to go for the panel you are considering, though to be fair the little 60W panel has exceeded my performance expectations so far and so I would certainly anticipate good performance from the larger panel - although it is early days and so it will be interesting to see how things go in the future, though I am cautiously optimistic...!

View attachment 169019
View attachment 169015

Wrong thread methinks.
 
Re: "thoughts on how good these ones are..." , I installed a rear entry 60W PVLogic panel back in May when it was released - incidentally bought from Batteries & Solar; I have had some great experiences with the team there.

I cannot speak to the longevity of the panel though after flip-flopping as to whether to go for a rigid panel for over a year, I could not resist finally fitting a PVLogic rear entry one when this (60W version) was released, as I ultimately wanted something flush to the roof, completely black and with no visible cabling. I did contemplate different fixing arrangements though eventually installed with Sikaflex in the pattern suggested by the manufacturer.

I figured that for my needs, 60W would 'hopefully' be adequate since the main load on my leisure battery is a fridge - and I decided that I could easily add a second panel, or modify with a larger panel / second leisure battery if needed at a later date.

I spent about a week and a half parked-up on a recent sailing trip with EHU as backup if needed - and am pleased to report that I did not plug in once, as my tiny panel was doing a great job and peaking at its full 60W rating most days according to a Victron SmartSolar MPPT controller.

There always was an argument for me to go for the panel you are considering, though to be fair the little 60W panel has exceeded my performance expectations so far and so I would certainly anticipate good performance from the larger panel - although it is early days and so it will be interesting to see how things go in the future, though I am cautiously optimistic...!

View attachment 169019
View attachment 169015
That's all great to know, thank you
 
Couple of observations ...

The Sikaflex Bonding needs to be 1-2mm thick - I used spacer foam strips to maintain a small offset when I stuck my panels down.

If the bond is too thin then the shearing forces created by the different co-efficients of thermal expansion of the panel and the twinwall will cause a very thin sika bond to fail - just like the thinner sealant areas in your bath/shower always come off first - you also have a second bond between the roof and the twinwall which needs to be robust too.

If you allow water to collect between the panel and the surface it is bonded to then in winter this will freeze and expand, stressing your panels. I stuck my panels down using the method described in a number of sikaflex "how to" videos e.g.
and then ran a sealant bead round the exterior edge of the panels to prevent water ingress. The trapped air expanding and contracting will not stress the panels like freezing pockets of water will.

Don't worry about the wind effects, if properly bonded there will be no problem. Check out this video to see how difficult it is to remove a bonded panel .... it's German but the video speaks for itself ...
... wind will not rip it off.

I would not get too worked up about creating cooling channels with sikaflex, they will just collect dirt, debris and water over time and using the thermal mass and heat conduction of the aluminium pop-top is enough for my install IMO.

Finally, I don't know which pop-top you intend to bond it to, but the VW California (mine is a 22MY Ocean) has a foam sandwich with the headliner bonded to the inner surface of the aluminium roof. To go any distance horizontally through the foam sandwich is practically impossible, so the hole where the wires come through needs to be near the edge of the bonded on headlining/foam sandwich.

Here are some pics of my standard panels glued to an aluminium carrier solution .... anyway, just my experiences - so far all is good, including car washes and 200 km/h on the german autobahns. I would have liked to hide the cables completely, but everything is a compromise.

View attachment 169016

View attachment 169017View attachment 169018
It's a proprietary fibreglass one from Denby, UK. Water does seem to sit at the rear corners so now i'm concerned about water getting in like you say, and freezing.


Mmmm. What to do.

Edit: maybe hydrophobic spray down the air passages of the twinwall.
 
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The twin wall poly carb is recommended to be fitted under the semi flex panels over here in Aus.

it allows airflow under the panel, as the heat here reduces the efficiently.

it only adds 800-1000 grams.
 
The twin wall poly carb is recommended to be fitted under the semi flex panels over here in Aus.

it allows airflow under the panel, as the heat here reduces the efficiently.

it only adds 800-1000 grams.
Yeah, sorry, it's for underneath for sure
 
OMG just seen this and throwing away my thoughts on using twinwall - this is GENIUS :

Basically embeds nylon washers along the beads of adhesive to keep the whole thing raised in a consistent and strong manner!
 
OMG just seen this and throwing away my thoughts on using twinwall - this is GENIUS :

Basically embeds nylon washers along the beads of adhesive to keep the whole thing raised in a consistent and strong manner!
Hi KrakFox, how did your installation go? Seeing the video you linked I think I am going to do the same, genius.
 
So I’ve just fitted an 80w panel from Lensun on Twinwall. The Twinwall is fixed to the roof using VHB tape and the panel fixed to the Twinwall using plastic bolts through the eyelets. My thinking is if the panel fails I’ll just unbolt it from the Twinwall and fit another one and I’ll have plenty of airflow under the panel

37FDF1FC-EAA1-42BF-82DA-5BF08BD17402.jpeg045CBE49-0B62-4DD5-9DCD-D00812C36DD9.jpeg9F0D9F6B-432A-429E-BF79-E26BEF65C539.jpeg
 
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