Alcohol and keys

[Paynewright]

We’re down in North Devon on hols this week and there are loads of camper vans and motor homes around. There seem to be a few vans in the sea front car park where people are sleeping over night.

I passed one that had a set of optics for the gin and it got me wondering.

If I’d had a few beers and was sat in SWMBOs car on the public highway with the keys in my pocket I could be done for drink driving.

How is this different for a camper parked in a public place?

Ian

 

[Nige_g]

There is a defence of being drunk in charge in that there was no likelihood of driving. Technically if you are drunk, with the keys you are committing the offence, however you would have a defence and a good one. Certainly if the van is set up for sleeping etc.

Section 5(1)(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 creates a statutory defence of there being no likelihood of driving the vehicle. This means that if you had no intention of driving the car (at all or any further) whilst over the limit, you are not guilty of being drunk in charge.

There is an evidential burden on the defence to prove, on a balance of probabilities, that there was no likelihood of the defendant driving. To do this we need to present evidence to the court.

 

[cgtmiles]

Interesting question and response; I’ve often thought about this, if wild camping there is surely always a chance you would have to move on anyway and so I wouldn’t want to drink just in case. If you are confident enough in the location to have a few beers I guess the defence would be helped if you are setup for the night with the vehicle obviously immobilised, bed out, chairs turned round, pop top up etc but I guess this is a bit more difficult if in stealth mode

 

[Nige_g]

Interesting question and response; I’ve often thought about this, if wild camping there is surely always a chance you would have to move on anyway and so I wouldn’t want to drink just in case. If you are confident enough in the location to have a few beers I guess the defence would be helped if you are setup for the night with the vehicle obviously immobilised, bed out, chairs turned round, pop top up etc but I guess this is a bit more difficult if in stealth mode

I've not had the van long and only wild camped once. It was on the side a road. For this reason, I allowed myself one beer only. Yes, it was set up to sleep, but I had fear of having to move for whatever reason and being over.

 

[Niall.b]

We camped at the weekend using a council owned car park along with 6 or so motorhomes. Didn't have any issues however it was in the back of my mind so only had a couple myself. Personally i wouldn't want the hassle of having to go to court and argue the toss over whether i was going to drive or not. I'll leave the G&T's and wine for the campsites in future to be on the safe side

 

[DXX]

From what I remember trespass laws require you to move on when requested if you are fit and able and the vehicle is roadworthy.
As far as public highways goes I guess you could end up being prosecuted. I‘m guessing the keys would have to be available to prove there is a chance of drink driving.
I believe there is a far greater chance of camping on the roadside after a skin full of beer, waking up early and setting off still over the limit.

 

[Niall.b]

the restaurant we had our meal in allow you to camp in their carpark overnight but its on a pretty steep slope and you have the risk of suitably refreshed individuals thinking its a great idea to shake the van or bang the sides of it. Be useful to be familiar with the legal aspects of this just in case

 

[Salty Spuds]

The secret is have a swivelling drivers seat. If you’re parked up on the public highway & are having/had a drink, swivel the seat. Take the keys out of the ignition & you’re good to (not) go. The vehicle can’t be driven, there’s no intent & you aren’t in charge.

 

[moomin-j]

@Paynewright - I asked the same question direct to West Yorkshire police and this was the official reply:

Thank you for your email.

We can't provide a yes/no answer to your question, as the legal position is rather more complicated. Nonetheless, we have endeavoured to explain the main elements below.

Whether or not someone is in charge of a vehicle will always be a question of fact and degree to be decided by a court. Hence, it is not possible for us to provide a definitive checklist of points that will prevent you from being held to be 'in charge' of your vehicle. The circumstances surrounding being in charge of a motor vehicle were reviewed in the case of DPP v Watkins in which it was highlighted that two different situations might arise:

Where the defendant is the owner or has recently driven it. In this case it would be for the defendant to show that he/she was no longer in charge of it and that there was no likelihood of his/her resuming control at the relevant time e.g. while drunk.

Where the defendant is not the owner or has not recently driven the vehicle. In these cases the prosecution must show that the defendant was in voluntary control of the vehicle or intended to become so in the immediate future.

In arriving at their decision, the court should consider:

* Whether the defendant was in the vehicle and if so, where in the vehicle, or, if not in the vehicle, how far from it;

* What the defendant was doing at the relevant time;

* Whether the defendant was in possession of a key that fitted the ignition;

* Whether there was evidence of an intention to take or assert control by driving or otherwise;

* Whether anyone was in or near the vehicle at the time, and, if so, the like particulars in respect of that person.


The above points provide some insight in relation to the actions that will lead to a driver still being held to be in charge of their vehicle. However, on a practical note, whilst a driver may not subsequently be prosecuted for an 'in charge' offence, it does not prevent them, in certain circumstances, being required to take a preliminary breath test or being arrested and taken to the police station.


If you want to be 100% certain that you will not fall foul of the law then we would advise that you do not drink alcohol and sleep in a camper van overnight on a road or public place.

We hope this information is of use.


Regards,

PNLD

And a simpler, shorter reply from Derbyshire police:

Strictly speaking the answer is yes, the gentleman is in a public place and could therefore be classed as being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.

However, the point to prove would be his intention to drive. I would suggest that would be very difficult if he doesn’t place the key in the ignition, never starts up the engine, doesn’t sit behind the steering wheel (or in the driver’s seat if it is facing forwards) or is in bed.

 

[Paynewright]

Interesting topic - it might be worth having a keyless remote so you can lock/unlock the van but cannot start it, then have a place to hide the real key.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Interesting topic - it might be worth having a keyless remote so you can lock/unlock the van but cannot start it, then have a place to hide the real key.

Or flip that on its head, the tight fisted Yorkshire version is a cheap Timpsons non-transponder key that will unlock the doors but not start the van.

 

[Oldrat]

To protect yourself and your licence, you have to consider the whole package, as it appears to the police, and not just having your keys hanging up in the back of the van.

There are many very simple things that you could think about doing.

You don’t have to do any, but if you think that you might be at risk of being spoken to by police you might want to at least think about it.

Some left field things that could be relevant as evidence to show that you were unlikely to drive might be:

Your clothing at the time. For example would someone with bare feet and pyjamas/comfy’s be more or less likely to drive than someone in jeans and trainers?

What was the vehicle set up at the time? Was the drivers seat turned around?
Was an awning attached with seats and carpet?
Was there a roll out awning deployed- and if so how easily could the vehicle be restored into a drivable condition?
We’re you operating a Bar-b-que at the time?
Were any security locks deployed?
Was there a pedal lock fitted on the pedals?
Any steering wheel clamp, or wheel clamp fitted?

Any of these things (plus more) can to help to create the picture of no intention to drive, and they can be mentioned in evidence, to persuade (initially) an officer, and if you are really unlucky - ultimately a court, that you were unlikely to drive.

Just my ha’penceworth, hope it helps.

 

[Sabre]

I heard that someone did this, had a few beers, parked up in a side parking area and was asked to move on. Told the policeman he'd had a beer and wasnt intending to drive after that. Seeing that the guy wasnt plastered, but also wasnt causing a nuisance the copper said to sleep it off, then leave quietly early in the morning.
I think thats being reasonable.

 

[cgtmiles]

The secret is have a swivelling drivers seat. If you’re parked up on the public highway & are having/had a drink, swivel the seat. Take the keys out of the ignition & you’re good to (not) go. The vehicle can’t be driven, there’s no intent & you aren’t in charge.

Turning the drivers seat could be used as a sobriety test. It’s a struggle at the best of times!

 

[R8N XX]

Where in north Devon are you.

 

[Paynewright]

Appledore

 

[DXX]

I’ve seen the Police called to attend a pub car park where a habitual drunk driver was going to crawl into his car to drive home as they do many days of the week.
He was cautioned before getting in the car and let off after promising not to drive, it seems that the Police are not allowed to allow somebody to get in the car and therefore don’t have a solid case for prosecution.
Absolutely no deterrent as in most cases the Police are to busy to respond.

 

[DaveD]

I’ve seen the Police called to attend a pub car park where a habitual drunk driver was going to crawl into his car to drive home as they do many days of the week.
He was cautioned before getting in the car and let off after promising not to drive, it seems that the Police are not allowed to allow somebody to get in the car and therefore don’t have a solid case for prosecution.
Absolutely no deterrent as in most cases the Police are to busy to respond.

Having received information that the man will drive away from the pub, whilst drunk, the Officers have to ask themselves,
"What if we sit up the road, wait for him to drive, we put the blue lights on and he makes off, we have a high speed pursuit, he collides with another car, multiple people are killed. Could we have avoided that?"
Who wants to be the Officer at the inquest when the coroner asks, "Did you consider the risk to the public and the drink driver in allowing that drunk driver to leave the pub car park?"

 

[Mud Digger]

I heard that someone did this, had a few beers, parked up in a side parking area and was asked to move on. Told the policeman he'd had a beer and wasnt intending to drive after that. Seeing that the guy wasnt plastered, but also wasnt causing a nuisance the copper said to sleep it off, then leave quietly early in the morning.
I think thats being reasonable.

This.... just give a good reason... it has shown the police you had no intension to drive. you are seen being responsible.. and you will leave as soon as you have had a chance to sleep it off . you genuinely thought it was a ok place to park / stay the night so you had a drink and you don't want the leave the van unattended in a layby or public carpark or can they escort you or drive the van to a better place to park for 6 hours.
but its your choice to wild park don't drink over the limit till you get to a proper car park your allowed to stay in
you will have a larger stash of booze that you did't drink while getting there..... and remember you might meet that one copper that will want to give you a parking ticket too .......

 

[DXX]

This.... just give a good reason... it has shown the police you had no intension to drive. you are seen being responsible.. and you will leave as soon as you have had a chance to sleep it off . you genuinely thought it was a ok place to park / stay the night so you had a drink and you don't want the leave the van unattended in a layby or public carpark or can they escort you or drive the van to a better place to park for 6 hours.
but its your choice to wild park don't drink over the limit till you get to a proper car park your allowed to stay in
you will have a larger stash of booze that you did't drink while getting there..... and remember you might meet that one copper that will want to give you a parking ticket too .......

Any land with public access is subject to the laws of being drunk in charge, obviously that includes car parks.

What are rules regarding being caught DD on private land?

I recently heard about a councillor who was arrested for drink driving and refusing to provide a specimen in a hotel car park after he moved his car within the car park. He had not been on the public highway prior to being caught over the limit or had any intention of driving on the public...

www.forum.drinkdriving.org