Wild Camp Locations?

[widu13]

One of the mags did an article on the legalities of wild camping, can remember reading it but cant remember which mag!
Either the CCC monthly or maybe Campervan. I'll see if I can find it. It was very informative and well written with help from
the publishers legal team. They did emphasise that to the letter of the law, its permitted in a tent, not a campervan, but
there were some Scotland/elsewhere differences that I forget.
Cheers
Phil

The thing with "experts" is that they offer their interpretation. I can't offer any legal advice only facts. A court case sets the rules for the real interpretation. To date (AFAIK) there is no legislation in England/Wales (I don't know about Scotland) that prevents wild camping. Wild camping is a bit of a misnomer and used for a catch all but easier to write than "overnight sleeping in vehicles". If anyone is able to link to actual law preventing wild camping I would be very glad to read up on it. BTW again AFAIK there is no law allowing camping in tents, but some of the national parks have acceptable use rules/policies and tents are included with some specific conditions attached, whilst vehicles are not. Rules or policies are not law.

In English law, anything that is not forbidden by legislation or common law is allowed. Throughout my time with the old bill, I did not know of one prosecution for wild camping (travellers law is different and can't be used for wild camping). If I've missed something in the last few years I would be very grateful if someone could evidence this legislation.

Having said all that, we seem to be veering off course; I simply asked whether the forum could share a few spots for other members. Whether or not I choose to use said places is down to me surely?

 

[widu13]

@Phil_G Was it this one Phil: How to go wild camping

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

The thing with "experts" is that they offer their interpretation. I can't offer any legal advice only facts. A court case sets the rules for the real interpretation. To date (AFAIK) there is no legislation in England/Wales (I don't know about Scotland) that prevents wild camping. Wild camping is a bit of a misnomer and used for a catch all but easier to write than "overnight sleeping in vehicles". If anyone is able to link to actual law preventing wild camping I would be very glad to read up on it. BTW again AFAIK there is no law allowing camping in tents, but some of the national parks have acceptable use rules/policies and tents are included with some specific conditions attached, whilst vehicles are not. Rules or policies are not law.

In English law, anything that is not forbidden by legislation or common law is allowed. Throughout my time with the old bill, I did not know of one prosecution for wild camping (travellers law is different and can't be used for wild camping). If I've missed something in the last few years I would be very grateful if someone could evidence this legislation.

Having said all that, we seem to be veering off course; I simply asked whether the forum could share a few spots for other members. Whether or not I choose to use said places is down to me surely?

I don’t think we are veering off course. Myself and one or two others are saying that sharing ‘wild camping’ locations on a forum potentially leads to those quiet spots being overrun and abused. Just because something is technically legal does not mean it’s right or decent to do it

FWIW, in Scotland wild camping is specifically allowed but is defined as being in tents, well away from roads, buildings and monuments. The guidance is in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, referred to in the 2003 act that enshrines right of access. People often refer to ‘right to roam’ in Scotland which is wrong - it is right of access which comes with responsibilities defined in the code. I have always thought that if more people applied the key headlines of the code to their own lives everywhere, the world would be a better place

• Respect the interests of others
• Care for the environment
• Take responsibility for your own actions

 

[andys]

And proper wild campers laugh when we call parking up in a van “wild camping”

 

[Strettyp]

And proper wild campers laugh when we call parking up in a van “wild camping”

Above the gentle hum of the heater and after turning the TV down a touch

 

[DXX]

Live and let live, that includes the doggers.........nanny state sucks!

 

[widu13]

FWIW, in Scotland wild camping is specifically allowed but is defined as being in tents, well away from roads, buildings and monuments. The guidance is in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, referred to in the 2003 act that enshrines right of access. People often refer to ‘right to roam’ in Scotland which is wrong - it is right of access which comes with responsibilities defined in the code. I have always thought that if more people applied the key headlines of the code to their own lives everywhere, the world would be a better place

• Respect the interests of others
• Care for the environment
• Take responsibility for your own actions

I have to disagree to a degree. If something is not unlawful, then it is lawful and allowed by definition. If the population does not like something that is allowed by LAW, then do something about it. Many people talk about respect etc (this is not aimed at you) but then say that travelling 5mph over the limit (as an example) is not an issue, whereas the law saying anything over the limit IS an issue.

 

[widu13]

Perhaps we should change the title to Overnight Parking? Semantics about the wording of overnight stops is a bit pedantic. Wild is defined as:

Wild - adjective, wild·er, wild·est.
living in a state of nature; not tamed or domesticated:a wild animal; wild geese.
growing or produced without cultivation or the care of humans, as plants, flowers, fruit, or honey:wild cherries.
uncultivated, uninhabited, or waste:wild country.
uncivilized or barbarous:wild tribes.

This doesn't seem to fit even for tents, but is accepted.

Camp- noun
a place where an army or other group of persons or an individual is lodged in a tent or tents or other temporary means of shelter.
such tents or shelters collectively:The regiment transported its camp in trucks.
the persons so sheltered:The camp slept through the storm.
verb (used without object)
to establish or pitch a camp:The army camped in the valley.
to live temporarily in or as if in a camp or outdoors, usually for recreation (often followed by out ):They camped by the stream for a week.

This does seem to apply to vehicles. So if we accept wild camping for tents, pedants can rejoice as we can also use it for vans

 

[andys]

Perhaps we should change the title to Overnight Parking? Semantics about the wording of overnight stops is a bit pedantic. Wild is defined as:

Wild - adjective, wild·er, wild·est.
living in a state of nature; not tamed or domesticated:a wild animal; wild geese.
growing or produced without cultivation or the care of humans, as plants, flowers, fruit, or honey:wild cherries.
uncultivated, uninhabited, or waste:wild country.
uncivilized or barbarous:wild tribes.

This doesn't seem to fit even for tents, but is accepted.

Camp- noun
a place where an army or other group of persons or an individual is lodged in a tent or tents or other temporary means of shelter.
such tents or shelters collectively:The regiment transported its camp in trucks.
the persons so sheltered:The camp slept through the storm.
verb (used without object)
to establish or pitch a camp:The army camped in the valley.
to live temporarily in or as if in a camp or outdoors, usually for recreation (often followed by out ):They camped by the stream for a week.

This does seem to apply to vehicles. So if we accept wild camping for tents, pedants can rejoice as we can also use it for vans

Ermm, yeah, if you feel that strongly about it...

 

[widu13]

Only the rebuttal Andy; I couldn't care less about the term but if someone says "x,y,z" I always like to see the evidence. Just like I see that it has been announced here that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 has introduced legislation- not strictly true as it simply empowers the local authority and SNH to pass bylaws https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/act-and-access-code/land-reform-act/who-has-duties-and-powers There is nothing there about enforcement. I'm not going to go into Scots and Eng/Wales law, but in Eng/Wales there is no power to demand a name and address from the person suspected of carrying out the tort (bylaw breach) by anyone including a police officer and there is no power to compel the registered keeper of a vehicle to divulge the ID of the user for a civil tort.

Some may say why take this stance? My point is, that unless there is a good reason (as discussed above and agreed with); why just not allow someone to stay overnight, instead of just saying "because you can't". We then also get into legislative semantics. No Overnight Camping- this is not the same in terminology as No Overnight Parking, how does the local authority prove that the occupants are sleeping (my van is 100% blacked out with physical screens) and how do they prove that the occupants are in fact sleeping "overnight" and not simply resting for a few hours. This is the reason that such civil offences are not pursued.

I once (inadvertently) stopped on the Sandringham estate. One of the Estate Wardens knocked on the door in the morning (I had a motorhome at the time) and I asked if we had a good night and would we be moving on soon. After assuring him that we had stopped for breakfast and were leaving soon (he turned down a cuppa), he thanked me and was on his way. Simples. No harm, no foul.

I was hoping for more views both for an against to see what the general consensus is, but from the few participants it seems an approximate 50/50 split. I will continue to brazenly but thoughtfully wild camp and give my revenue to the local area.

 

[DXX]

Perhaps we should change the title to Overnight Parking? Semantics about the wording of overnight stops is a bit pedantic. Wild is defined as:

Wild - adjective, wild·er, wild·est.
living in a state of nature; not tamed or domesticated:a wild animal; wild geese.
growing or produced without cultivation or the care of humans, as plants, flowers, fruit, or honey:wild cherries.
uncultivated, uninhabited, or waste:wild country.
uncivilized or barbarous:wild tribes.

This doesn't seem to fit even for tents, but is accepted.

Camp- noun
a place where an army or other group of persons or an individual is lodged in a tent or tents or other temporary means of shelter.
such tents or shelters collectively:The regiment transported its camp in trucks.
the persons so sheltered:The camp slept through the storm.
verb (used without object)
to establish or pitch a camp:The army camped in the valley.
to live temporarily in or as if in a camp or outdoors, usually for recreation (often followed by out ):They camped by the stream for a week.

This does seem to apply to vehicles. So if we accept wild camping for tents, pedants can rejoice as we can also use it for vans

It’s a beautiful sunny day, put the dictionary down and get out and do some dogging, wild or otherwise

 

[Davenjo]

Without getting too hung up on what constitutes wild, whether it's legal, etc., I quite like the idea proposed by @widu13 when he created this thread. So, I am about to create a sticky thread in the ViP Members Area (to limit visibility) where we can share details of favourite non regimented and/or free camping locations - if you want to share do but equally, if you want to keep the secret location to yourself, don't!

 

[widu13]

Fantastic.

 

[Grainfoot]

Spent many years in campers round Scotland an islands mainly, never had any problems with respectful wild camping.
It should be done discreetly away from housing and main roads. Litter and waste should all be taken home as should any firepit waste.
These places are not the place to meet up with other vans there are campsites for that.
In the last couple of years many spots on or close by the NC 500 have been ruined by thoughtless idiots. BBQ waste and general waste just left behind.
Once you wouldn't see any litter or waste anywhere up there. Now it's everywhere.
Campers will be banned on all but official campsites it's only a matter of time. The websites marking possible wild camps have definitely made things worse. Once quiet out of the way places are now regularly taken by often more than one campervan.

 

[LastBoyScout]

Regretfully have to agree with Grainfoot. There is already discussions around this subject and proposals have been made to control campervans. The NC500 has become a bit of pain for those living on the route and believe it or not there will be pedal cycle safaris on the route this summer. I have dealt with numerous accidents in the Caithness section and know there are sections unsuitable for both the size and quantity of vehicles during the busy season. We also have the idiot clubs with supercars attempting to do the route in 1 or 2 days. If you meet them watch out.
Best to try to remain invisible when parking up and keep a low profile. If a place is used too often it draws attention.

 

[widu13]

It should be done discreetly away from housing and main roads. Litter and waste should all be taken home as should any firepit waste.

Best to try to remain invisible when parking up and keep a low profile. If a place is used too often it draws attention.

I absolutely 100% agree. It has always surprised me that Scotland allowed fires; it's very very frowned upon south of the border. It's always the idiots; often those who don't go there to camp, but go there to party and sleep over that cause the issues. A difference that can never be legislated for unfortunately. I wild camp in tents too and kids partying and sleeping in tents are seen in the same light as those wild camping. From the local authorities view, the only way to stamp it out is to stop it completely.

Overnight party sleeping in tents:

 

[Phil_G]

"Keep a low profile" and "remain invisible" by lighting a fire?

I must be a bit soft, to me it seems disrespectful to rock up on somebody's land, light a fire, then dispose of the evidence.
Pulling off an isolated road somewhere for a nights kip is one thing, lighting fires takes it out of the 'light touch, minimum impact' approach for me

Moorland, forests, beer & fires are a volatile mix!
Cheers
Phil

 

[Phil_G]

@Phil_G Was it this one Phil: How to go wild camping

Thats a good article, but it wasnt that one - I did find it, its Campervan Magazine April 2019. What I'd forgotten was that its almost exclusively about wild camping in Scotland:

"Lifelong campervan enthusiast and access campaigner Cameron McNeish shines a light on confusing legislation..."

Its three A4 sides from a very positive outlook, well worth a read if you can find a copy, the article is too recent to scan & post here.
It emphasises and clarifies the legal aspects in some detail particularly with regard to the Andy Strangeway vs The Highland Council case.

Cheers
Phil