Well it is, did you not pick up on my point that you could have suggested that this may have been the cause and suggested this to your dealer?
102PS with 2 Turbo Failures - was re-map to blame?
- Thread starter Stevo468
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- 102ps remap turbo problem
Probably the best non-technical advice I’ve seen posted on this thread, particularly regarding approach to address. Not a rant at all!
Er, yep there is. There is a Vivaro & a Pug Expert on my drive along with a Crafter & a T6.
If the T6 was n`t a 204 I would be just as happy in any of them
VW having referred to VW HQ and have confirmed in their opinion that low oil pressure (0.3 bar) was the cause of the second turbo failure. They also said their evidence suggests there was insufficient oil present in the first place. Plus the selectable higher pressure oil mode had not been enabled by the garage who carried out the repair. Their revised indicative quote for carrying out repairs and replacing all parts that may have been affected and being able to offer 2 years warranty post repair is now edging towards £8k - they are concerned about possible foreign object damage to the engine block and cylinder head hence the hike in cost... That's a total of over £10k in repair costs.
The turbo compressor nut was found to have come off, but there was little damage to the vanes which is odd. If the nut had come off when the turbo was spinning at high revs (i.e. anything up to 100,000+ rpm) it would've destroyed the impeller. The impeller does not appear to have been particularly badly damaged.
I'm advised to present VW findings to the local garage. My intention is to do this when I have it in writing from VW.
A couple of technical issues: Obviously there is no correlation between oil level and oil pressure until the oil level is so low that the oil pick up is no longer immersed in oil. The garage billed for adding 7.4 litres oil. VW cannot account for approximatly 5 litres. There was no oil dripping from underneath the van when it failed. It's hard to believe 4-5 litres went through the engine when the turbo failed.
VW did not seem interested in offering an opinion about the cause of the first turbo failure.
I appreciate the comment about speculation, but it is very difficult to use only the facts available when they simply don't add up very well. Missing unknown facts can make it difficult to map the actual course of events that led to the failure. That is why we use subject matter experts to attempt to fill the gaps based on likely probability.
I'm just using the forum as means of discussing the sorry saga with other interested parties and welcome comments from anyone who may have something useful to say/comment. In the main, I've found most people comments really useful. So for those who have tried to be constructive - thank you.
The turbo compressor nut was found to have come off, but there was little damage to the vanes which is odd. If the nut had come off when the turbo was spinning at high revs (i.e. anything up to 100,000+ rpm) it would've destroyed the impeller. The impeller does not appear to have been particularly badly damaged.
I'm advised to present VW findings to the local garage. My intention is to do this when I have it in writing from VW.
A couple of technical issues: Obviously there is no correlation between oil level and oil pressure until the oil level is so low that the oil pick up is no longer immersed in oil. The garage billed for adding 7.4 litres oil. VW cannot account for approximatly 5 litres. There was no oil dripping from underneath the van when it failed. It's hard to believe 4-5 litres went through the engine when the turbo failed.
VW did not seem interested in offering an opinion about the cause of the first turbo failure.
I appreciate the comment about speculation, but it is very difficult to use only the facts available when they simply don't add up very well. Missing unknown facts can make it difficult to map the actual course of events that led to the failure. That is why we use subject matter experts to attempt to fill the gaps based on likely probability.
I'm just using the forum as means of discussing the sorry saga with other interested parties and welcome comments from anyone who may have something useful to say/comment. In the main, I've found most people comments really useful. So for those who have tried to be constructive - thank you.
In my opinion you will never know with any certainty how exactly much oil was ingested by the engine during the failure of the turbo.
It is more relevant that the oil pressure wasn't set to the higher setting as it should have been, a provable fact that is very relevant.
Your experience has certainly been thought provoking and I hope the matter can be resolved.
I didn’t say as much but after the sort of failure that you described it would be unusual for there not to be engine damage if that much oil had gone through the engine in such a short time.
It is unusual and I would be very interested to see the Turbo although from what you have said elsewhere it sounds like the damage is along the shaft, if the bearings seized.
Thats what I would do, dont get into a debate about the what if’s, remember you are not the expert here (& neither are they by the sound of it) - in my experience the best policy is ‘say little, listen lots’, it’s simple they either take ownership or you will get VW to do it and engage legally - this is easy and cheap if the bill is under £10K - small claims court. I would suggest that you cant lose if you have a piece of paper from the manufacturers agent saying the correct process wasn’t followed.
The isn’t a correlation between oil level and pressure as long as the pick up is pulling oil, however there is a correlation between oil level and oil temperature and oil does not like to work outside of it’s temperature range, the turbo is the place where the oil works hardest (the cam lobes are next)
Remember oil is a coolant too but you wont see the effect on your engine temperature gauge as the cooling system is capable of compensating for the effect on the coolant.
They wont offer an opinion as I’m assuming they dont have the part, to do so is speculation.
If you do get something from VW and want to get a professional opinion on it then I would be happy to donate an hour to the forum and do that for you - pm me if you want to discuss.
Also be very careful with oil pressure and volume of oil getting to the components, a restrictive orifice would let very little oil through but you you have very little oil getting to it, you say about the garage putting oil in but it might just be me but you seem to belive what the garage says and not vw, I had mentioned the increased oil pressure stage it concerns me your local garage did not !! They are obviously not upto date on vehicles
He said he checked the oil level before he left the garage, there was oil in it.
At least you now have a report to go back to the repairing dealer with. Any correspondence should now be in writing as you’ll have evidence of any comments from the dealer.
Regarding engine damage or the possibility of consequential damage, you can get an oil sample analysis. Maybe the main VW dealer can assist at a cost obviously.
It will show if any bearing breakdown is present .
The repairing dealer should, I guess, have insurance against this sort of thing.
Best of luck Bud, keep us informed.
Regarding engine damage or the possibility of consequential damage, you can get an oil sample analysis. Maybe the main VW dealer can assist at a cost obviously.
It will show if any bearing breakdown is present .
The repairing dealer should, I guess, have insurance against this sort of thing.
Best of luck Bud, keep us informed.
As the turbo has failed the oil will be a mess anyway so an oil sample is another complication you don’t need at this stage, if VW say it has run with low oil then the condition of the cam lobes and at least the centre main should be on the to-do list for the repairer.
True! .... a ‘ not thinking ‘ moment!
In my previous employment oil analysis was critical to machinery reliability.
Condition monitoring requires more than one analysis as trends needs to be seen.
Once you have the trends showing metals, soluble water, carbon, fuel dilution, sodium and a few other contents combined with oil hours, viscosity and operating temperature you can begin to do some detective work.
I can’t see how one oil sample can be of any use at all unless it proves fuel dilution.
Condition monitoring requires more than one analysis as trends needs to be seen.
Once you have the trends showing metals, soluble water, carbon, fuel dilution, sodium and a few other contents combined with oil hours, viscosity and operating temperature you can begin to do some detective work.
I can’t see how one oil sample can be of any use at all unless it proves fuel dilution.
Not all turbo failures result in an engine that is possibly damaged to the point of a tear-down.
VW are covering their backside as they could be taking on the job the first garage failed at doing. They won’t ‘ short change’ themselves.
Fuel dilution? The van only travelled a few mile before 2nd failure. I’d be more interested to see if there were a high content of alloys present. The oil was fresh. No need for trends as I can see it.
If no “ debris” present, why pull it apart? That’s what I was getting at.
VW are covering their backside as they could be taking on the job the first garage failed at doing. They won’t ‘ short change’ themselves.
Fuel dilution? The van only travelled a few mile before 2nd failure. I’d be more interested to see if there were a high content of alloys present. The oil was fresh. No need for trends as I can see it.
If no “ debris” present, why pull it apart? That’s what I was getting at.
Agreed they wont want to take any chances as they are new to the job and they will have to put it right if it goes again.
IMO an oil sample wont give anything meaningful, remember the turbo shaft has snapped so presumably the bearings have had a hard time and the oil will have washed at least some of the consequence of that into the sump.
What alloys would you be looking for and what would you do if you found them? (Serious question)
I’m not sure it needs pulling apart but if it really has had 5ltr of oil go through it in a very short distance (smoke to stop so much less than 2 miles) then it is worth checking for damage caused.
It would be a lab report that specified the type and % of `debris` in the oil. There aren`t any in fresh oil.
I do agree somewhat in `its pointless` as a turbo has failed, but, as I`m sure some will know, you ca
It was a suggestion, merely because VW want to potentially pull it apart and the bill is huge, understandably. Now the OP is in a position of whether take it to VW and have the sump pulled off and maybe more before the VW dealer is confident "they" aren`t in the same position as the first repairer.
You don`t get the same metals throughout every bearing surface/material and I`m sure someone on here will now google them.
Regarding the `missing ` oil, a hell of a lot of oil can get chucked down the exhaust in a short period of time. Lucky it didn`t get ingested as it could have run-away on the oil and you would be picking bits of the block/ engine off the road.
A good endoscope inspection will give a relatively cheap and quick indication of contamination and possibly damage. Obviously the endoscope cannot reach all parts but it’s an indicator as to the possible extent of damage and contamination.
As far as I’m aware the 102ps is equipped with an intercooler, this can be disconnected on the air side and back flushed with water / degreaser and the contents checked for debris by passing through a screen.
As far as I’m aware the 102ps is equipped with an intercooler, this can be disconnected on the air side and back flushed with water / degreaser and the contents checked for debris by passing through a screen.
Have you ever worked with oil samples, the more info you want the more specialist and this more expensive, also as bearings wear the metals change, typically a crank bearing will show lead, copper and then steel as it wears. If you see steel you probably won’t see much lead as it would have been removed at the last oil change. (Without checking I am sure that VW uses steel bearings in their Diesel engines - steel crank bearings are very hard wearing but do not tolerate contamination like a common lead bearing.)
In terms of an oil sample after a major failure, it’s usually pointless and the best way is always a visual inspection.
if you are googling to try and understand an oil sample then you really are wasting your time, it’s often not what you see as individual contaminants but combinations of those that gives an idea what to look for.
Look, lets not take over this guy`s thread eh? Okay your`re an expert, we get it. I`m here to try and help the guy, not argue about oil samples and their worth. If every turbo failure ended in a strip-down, this thread wouldn`t be this long.
I’m not arguing but just trying to keep the OP on the right track rather than get taken down blind alleys and making the job more complex than it is.
No offence meant, apologies if it came across that way..
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