Remap ..... Just Can’t Decide On Which One

[Mooncat]

This is an eye opening thread.....@Mooncat, you seem to be well informed....jury's out for me but my T5 had been remapped prior to me buying it and I was well impressed....but MOT time was stressful. On the two MOT's I had done, emissions were a close run thing!

The smoke test conducted during the MoT is a joke which is why the testers have to visually look for any tampering or removal of after treatment systems (eg DPF). If it wasn't for the Euro emission requirements (and a bit of caution regarding engine longevity based on failures/wear characteristics during testing), the engineers at the OEM would be providing a calibration with similar power and torque to what the remappers provide.

There's so much more that goes on at the factory to produce power and emissions that most drivers don't give credit for. If you look at the Euro 5 engines, the 180 required a twin turbo arrangement for the performance/emission mix; they didn't use two turbos just for the fun of it as it causes lots of other issues. Because the remappers are not trying to produce a calibration that achieves Euro 5, they can get close to 180 quite happily out of the 140 (and below) rated engine.

This was the point of my original response to this thread. I still can't believe these remappers are allowed to operate as they are taking Euro compliant engines (give or take the odd emission scandal) and making them run dirtier. There's huge health concerns over diesel engine emissions (quite rightly so) and we are legally allowed to pay a company to make our engines run dirtier and use them on the Queen's highway!

 

[.50]

I'm going to put my hand up, and slightly contradict myself with my easy attidude towards remapping and warranty.

Since I bought my first new T4 back in the early 90,s things have moved forward in terms of emmision/fuel technology.

Remappers have always quickly responded to this, finding new ways around the manufactures attempts to prevent ecm software alteration.

It has, until recently, been quite easy to take of a power box off or knock a map back to standard, when putting a vehicle in for warranty work, however, VAG, ( amongst others ), will now scan the ecm, ( certainly in the case of engine/drivetrain repairs ), and if they find ANY trace marker of a software alteration they automatically void any warranty on these components.

The reality of it is, that if you change your ecm software, you are giving the manufacturer an easy excuse to not cover your engine/drivetrain.

My opinion, as stated earlier in this thread, is based on me never having had a problem with an engine/gearbox after being remapped within the warranty period. I do not believe, again, in my experience, that a moderate increase in power through a remap, will cause an significant increase in risk to my engine/gearbox.

So in a U turn on this issue, I will not be giving VW a reason to void the warranty on my engine and gearbox even though I am confident, if there was a problem, it would unlikely be a remap that caused it.

I think that my conscience has been slighty pricked after reading the contents of this thread in regards to emmisions, and what may have not mattered so much on previous, more dirty, engines, does matter on newer ones.

 

[andys]

I don’t think it’s something I will do, partly because of the extra insurance costs but also because, in a van, the 150PS I’ve got is enough. It’s not a vehicle i drive fast as even with H&Rs and B14s the handling is still nowhere near even a crappy car, but that’s fine, it’s a load carrying campervan that handles long distance cruising fine. When I want to drive fast I’ll drive the car.

However, I’m very much against any regulation to stop others doing this! One of the few freedoms we’ve got left in this country is being able to modify cars/vans etc and make our vehicles unique and perfectly suited to our tastes, I look at other countries where you can’t even fit a non-OEM air filter for example, let alone mess around with your suspension/wheels/tuning etc and i don’t want us to end up with that sort of regulation.

 

[JaySal]

The smoke test conducted during the MoT is a joke which is why the testers have to visually look for any tampering or removal of after treatment systems (eg DPF). If it wasn't for the Euro emission requirements (and a bit of caution regarding engine longevity based on failures/wear characteristics during testing), the engineers at the OEM would be providing a calibration with similar power and torque to what the remappers provide.

There's so much more that goes on at the factory to produce power and emissions that most drivers don't give credit for. If you look at the Euro 5 engines, the 180 required a twin turbo arrangement for the performance/emission mix; they didn't use two turbos just for the fun of it as it causes lots of other issues. Because the remappers are not trying to produce a calibration that achieves Euro 5, they can get close to 180 quite happily out of the 140 (and below) rated engine.

This was the point of my original response to this thread. I still can't believe these remappers are allowed to operate as they are taking Euro compliant engines (give or take the odd emission scandal) and making them run dirtier. There's huge health concerns over diesel engine emissions (quite rightly so) and we are legally allowed to pay a company to make our engines run dirtier and use them on the Queen's highway!

I take it that you don’t eat cows then as they pollute more than cars and we have to think of those Dolphins? I’ll go with the remap and just cut down on the Mcdoogles and have a tuna sandwich......darn that’s bad for the Dolphins too.

All we are saying is give Peas a chance....

 

[Flashollie]

I used to have a 110 bhp VW Passat 15 years ago
I had it remapped to give about 140 hp. No doubt from driveability it was a vast improvement.
But when I booted it it gave huge dumps of black smoke. Back then buses trucks etc did the same thing. So I was ok with it.

Now a days we are in a different world. Everything is cleaner. The remappers may need to start offering evidence they can produce maps as clean as the originals for the more discerning clients.

But if the governments cant find away to make them compliant via more stringent MOTs the less unscrupulous ones will carry on.
Perhaps the root cause of this is car MOTs
As also applies to tackling cars who won't be compliant due to poor servicing etc. Passing emissions at MOT is too easy.

 

[Lukavell]

I've used Pendle and RH tuning and been happy with both.

 

[Mooncat]

View attachment 23397

I take it that you don’t eat cows then as they pollute more than cars and we have to think of those Dolphins? I’ll go with the remap and just cut down on the Mcdoogles and have a tuna sandwich......darn that’s bad for the Dolphins too.

All we are saying is give Peas a chance....

If you're going to McDoogles, it's very unlikely that you're eating anything that came from a cow!

Obviously there is a big difference between the methane that came from the back end of an Aberdeen Angus and the soot and oxides of nitrogen that diesels chuck out.

 

[JaySal]

Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars

Plenty more on the internet about it.

 

[Mars2]

They are adjusting fuel timing, pressure and duration which affects NOx and particulate matter. They don't even have the equipment to measure the likes of NOx so have no way of producing an emission compliant map if they tried (they don't try, emissions go out of the window and they focus purely on performance). Although the DPF will mask the increase in particulate matter, it will need to regen more often.

If anyone thinks these 'tuners' can produce a better calibration than VW (or any other OEM for that matter), they are delusional. Just because a remapped diesel passes the MoT smoke test, it doesn't mean it hasn't screwed up the emissions.

Most of the tuner use Allientech ( K suit), DM sport or Winols read your ECU and rewright it in your car ECU also many many of them buy ready of the shelves map from those big tuning company and make you believe they remap your car.
Those company do take care that your DPF does not need to regenerate more often.
Just one exemple that show the take care of it.
WinolsTunes

Ask your tuner what tool he is using to reading right your ECU. most of the time it will be the Alientech K suit ( Ktag and KESS) and most of the time he will buy off the shelve map from them.
Alientech

 

[Mooncat]

Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars

Plenty more on the internet about it.

Ok, so they are referring to CO2 rather than methane this time, you're still comparing apples with pomegranates. If you're concerned about CO2, make sure you stay away from ever living mammal on the planet and you should be fine. Do an internet search on NOx or oxides of nitrogen instead.

Most of the tuner use Allientech ( K suit), DM sport or Winols read your ECU and rewright it in your car ECU also many many of them buy ready of the shelves map from those big tuning company and make you believe they remap your car.
Those company do take care that your DPF does not need to regenerate more often.
Just one exemple that show the take care of it.
WinolsTunes

Ask your tuner what tool he is using to reading right your ECU. most of the time it will be the Alientech K suit ( Ktag and KESS) and most of the time he will buy off the shelve map from them.
Alientech

There will be some specific conditions where the particulate output is lower, however what they don't tell you is that the NOx level has most likely increased instead........except they probably can't tell you that as they don't have the equipment to measure NOx. Seriously, these companies can not do a better job than the OEM who have teams of engineers working on software and engine components continuously.

 

[Mars2]

In my country we will know as the new MOT include the 5 gaz emission test ( C02, CO, NOx, HC and O2.)
each MOT station have to invest in a 5 gaz tester that cost 40.000€. So we will know if those remap car can pass that MOT.

 

[Mooncat]

Do they check the emissions when the engine is loaded or is it idle and free revving?

 

[Mars2]

They test on rolling bank at 2 different Rpm and at idle.
So yes loaded.

 

[Mars2]

But may be VW still have this trick in the ECU that make it come in special emission test mode when it feel it's on a Rolling bank .
No I guess not it has cost them too much a couple of year ago

 

[Mooncat]

If they did that in the UK, there would be a lot of people getting their 'remaps' reversed!

 

[Mars2]

I think it's not really a problem at the end Because most big tuning company have Map loader allientech got powergate3, Revo got SPS, ecutek got their OBD2 cable, Cobb tuning also.... and so on.

So just before Mot you connect to OBD2 port. flash back the OEM map. it take 5mn. Then exit the MOT flash back your stage 1 or 2.

On my Toyota GT86 with ekutek I can even switch through 4 different Map with the cruise control switch. One of them is the OEM Map. Map 4 is a drift map that allows the esp to let it drift to a good angle .
I hope to get that same thing on my T6 very soon. the needle of the rev show you on what number map you are when you brake and activate the cruise control switch like on my Toyota.
This on a bosch MED9.1 ECU.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=632455040428183

 

[Mars2]

Ok, so they are referring to CO2 rather than methane this time, you're still comparing apples with pomegranates. If you're concerned about CO2, make sure you stay away from ever living mammal on the planet and you should be fine. Do an internet search on NOx or oxides of nitrogen instead.


There will be some specific conditions where the particulate output is lower, however what they don't tell you is that the NOx level has most likely increased instead........except they probably can't tell you that as they don't have the equipment to measure NOx. Seriously, these companies can not do a better job than the OEM who have teams of engineers working on software and engine components continuously.

When VW create a MAP for their car it has to deal with all the different quality of diesel or gazoline in the world. Were as a tuner deal only with what is available in his country.
For exemple me I know that my Map is optimized for 98 or E85. Not for the lower 95 ron too much timing and turbo boost, it will knock like hell with 95

different country level of sulfure in diesel:
Diesel Sulfur Limits Worldwide and the Need for ULSD

 

[Mooncat]

Certainly for Europe, the OEMs run EN590 compliant fuel for their testing and approval but it probably won't be what you can buy from the pumps. Dependant on the market, it is different technology and vehicles sold for areas of Africa for example will not be Euro 6 compliant so in most cases the urban myth of the OEM using a calibration that will run on any fuel across the planet is wrong.

This is a good guide

 

[JaySal]

Mooncat, you’re living in Lala land if you think VW turn out the most environmentally friendly map on a vehicle and have the very best engineers looking at a vehicle checking componants continually. Perhaps you were on holiday there when the omissions scandal surfaced. So every product you purchase has the very best in the field working on every aspect of it to make it perfect....? Cuckoo. More like everything is churned out with just enough effort to stop it disintegrating in your hands with an aim to maximising profits.

Even manufacturers approach outside tuners to produce ‘special additions’ so clearly this undermines the ‘OEM is the best’ argument.

The thread started asking which was the best company for a remap. You’ve taken it upon yourself to go all hippy spouting off about the evil of remaps and pollution which you have no conclusive evidence of. You would be better off just posting “I’m not for them and can’t give an opinion who is best because my vehicle doesn’t have one.”

@RayC ...Pendle delivers a smooth power curve that pulls through all the gears and feels like a larger bore engine, I’ve had Revo remaps on the 2ltr 140bhp and the power delivery was a lot harsher and you had only a short band before needing to change gear.

I’d go with (and have) a Pendle in a van as it’s delivers usable torque.

 

[mopardave]

Mooncat, you’re living in Lala land if you think VW turn out the most environmentally friendly map on a vehicle and have the very best engineers looking at a vehicle checking componants continually. Perhaps you were on holiday there when the omissions scandal surfaced.

I'm not that well informed, but on the basis of what VW engineers were up to, I really do question the assumption that they are beyond reproach! I think @JaySal makes a fair point!