Lithium Leisure Battery

[Base1388]

Hi all

Just interested in peoples thoughts on the above please

Other than the obvious that they expensive !!

Many thanks
Romany

@travelvolts
Tagged you here Sir
hope you dont mind. Thank You

 

[Dellmassive]

All the reviews look great.....

But the price............

 

[Fish]

My question / concern would be to make sure all components are suited for lithium batteries. Obviously I don't know to much about it but would want to know that battery chargers are suited to this type.

 

[superchargedpolo]

I am doing a lot of research on this subject at the moment, battery technology is really interesting.
A good friend of mine works in the automotive industry and has made a few electric car prototypes and an ebike of his own, so is quite clued up on the different battery types available.
We are about to import some cells from China to make a couple of 100Ah packs, to go in our own vans. This will be integrated with an expandable bms (battery management system) and solar panels / battery to battery charger to keep them topped up.
They defiantly aren’t plug and play and there are a number of failsafes that you have to put in place to make sure you don’t damage them but the energy density is just outstanding.

I think they are more suited to bigger, off-grid / wild camping applications but a smaller version would be ideal for a T6.

I spoke to these guys recently and I think they have a plug and play, fully sealed system that is rated at circa 68Ah for just under £700, can’t find a link on their website though.
https://www.solartechnology.co.uk

Either way, it’s definitely very interesting technology that’s coming down in price all the time and makes lead acid batteries look positively prehistoric.

Good luck with your research.
Craig

 

[superchargedpolo]

Here is a link to the sterling power offering
12V 60Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery with BMS and safety shutdown
I still think you should put some failsafes in place but it’s a fully packaged and sealed battery with internal bms.

If you want to want to see a real top quality offering take a look at Victron Energy’s batteries.
Lithium battery 12,8V & 25,6V Smart - Victron Energy

 

[Bryn23]

If you are going to spend the money on Lithium, make sure that your charging system has suitable profiles for Lithium charging.

Also, you will need a a decent BMS system, it should shut down the system before the battery shuts itself down.

Is it worth the money, i'm not 100% sure, but the weight savings are.

if i recall, i saved 49kg from changing over from 280 ah AGM to a 240 ah Lithium battery

 

[Base1388]

wow huge weight saving

 

[Fish]

a 240 ah Lithium battery

May I ask what battery you have used for this.
Thanks.

 

[travelvolts]

I think you will find that all major brand Li ion batteries have a built in BMS these days. One other thing to consider, they have a huge carbon footprint from the manufacturing process!

 

[Davenjo]

Following; when my AGM leisure battery dies I will definitely be looking at a lithium replacement.

...One other thing to consider, they have a huge carbon footprint from the manufacturing process!

...I think this is true of a lot of so called green energy solutions - the carbon cost of manufacturing and other environmental/social damage is often ignored. I read a report recently that suggested the carbon break even point for an electric car vs an equivalent powered by diesel is around 125,000 KM (or circa 9 years of typical use) - I know which technology I'd trust to keep going that long!

 

[Base1388]

@travelvolts @Davenjo
Thank you Sirs for your input, carbon footprint i must admit is something i had not considered ! It had added another quandary to me..

I want to be as kind as i can to the environment I always have been and try to be working on the assumption that if everyone did something no one would need to do everything !

I was kind of hoping that the added expense of going Lithium would be better in the long run I wasn't planning to go the extra expense for selfish reasons.

However if the Lithium is so horrid possibly I should stick to AGM and a more traditional set up ???????

 

[Davenjo]

I’m no expert but it’s my understanding that because lithium batteries can be safely discharged a lot further means that more of the power you put into them is available for use, consequently a 100ah lithium setup will provide a lot more power than an equivalent AGM, etc. So, having already invested in a diesel van, if you are primarily charging as a by product of driving around and/or using solar power, plus the weight saving of the battery, you would get back some of the green points lost to manufacture

 

[Base1388]

@Davenjo Thank you

Good point, Like your thinking if i decided to go ahead I here by promice to be much more green than i was !
I also promice to collect x3 bags of other peoples rubbish when i go wild camping instead of the usual 2 !

That makes me feel much better !

 

[Davenjo]

@Davenjo Thank you

Good point, Like your thinking if i decided to go ahead I here by promice to be much more green than i was !
I also promice to collect x3 bags of other peoples rubbish when i go wild camping instead of the usual 2 !

That makes me feel much better !

Go for it - we need some earlier adopters to tell the rest of us how good the setup is

 

[Phil_G]

My experience is limited to A123 lithium cells, some in large packs. I've never had a big commercial Lithium battery like the Sterling one, though I do run several bikes with the original lead-acid replaced by a 4S A123 pack, and also a failed electric race-bike project. A123 were the originals, they're very good cells.
A big advantage of lithiums is the lack of self-discharge over long periods - they will retain a charge for years.
As a simple replacement, a 4S LiFePo4 battery is an almost perfect match for a 6S lead-acid, they have the same CC/CV charge profile, and the usual Pb bulk charge @ 14.6v across 4 cells is 3.65, spot on LiFePo4 peak v.
The usual Pb float of 13.8 across 4 cells is 3.45, again a happy maintenance voltage for LiFePo4. Internal BMS is often just cell balancing, if so even if your B2B doesnt have a LiFePo4 profile, the normal Pb settings should be ok. Different kettle of fish of course if its a complex internal BMS, you'd have to check.
All academic for me as they're way beyond my budget!
Cheers
Phil

 

[Base1388]

@Phil_G
Thanks for that, all way over my head
But you sound like you know what ya on about, please may i tap you up for some advice

Romany

 

[Bryn23]

May I ask what battery you have used for this.
Thanks.

It's a Deutsche Technologies battery, but it's just a rebranded Chinese made lithium battery, like most of the drop in lithium batteries, they are made to order in various quantities to order and badged.

I think you will find that all major brand Li ion batteries have a built in BMS these days. One other thing to consider, they have a huge carbon footprint from the manufacturing process!

You are correct, most of them have a basic form of BMS these days, but from what I've been told and read, its there as a last resort.

The primary function of the battery's BMS is to keep the cells balanced and also not be overcharged or completely flattened.

Lithium doesn't have the same voltage curve as Lead, so if your going to spend a fair bit of coin on one, it makes sense to use a BMS with a shunt to measure the battery capacity and a cut off that you are happy with.

I'm happy with 70- 80% DOD, as that's is what i'm comfortable with for long life

As for huge carbon footprint, like the T6 van itself, it has a big carbon footprint, and both can be recycled.

Also lithium with my DC-DC and solar setup, personally allows me not to need a petrol generator, so that must help.

 

[Phil_G]

As a management method, in/out series monitoring of capacity works well with lithium because of the low self-discharge, but ultimately its low voltage that kills the cells so an overriding LVC is the essential job of the BMS

LiFePo4 cells are tolerant of slight over-voltage but it needs a proper B2B setup, the standard VW split-charge relay method would take the battery well over-voltage during regenerative braking which might trip the internal BMS

 

[Martinf]

We have a 100Ah NDS lithium (Lion) leisure battery and it works very well. Main reason for lithium is to support the inverter. It would have needed a larger conventional battery to provide the necessary current.

The system was installed by our converter so I can’t provide too much technical background.

 

[t0mb0]

The thing I don’t understand is, like-for-like capacity, they don’t actually seem much more compact than traditional leisure batteries. I guess the higher theoretical energy density is partially outweighed by BMS/cooling and other gubbins...