Any suggestions to my wiring diagram? before I start cutting cables...
- Thread starter Thomplo
- Start date
Hello and welcome.
There is a lot of info available here once you know where to look!
Take a look at the @Dellmassive thread here and scroll down to the power section. There may be some info of use to you regarding the installation of chargers etc.
A couple of points from my limited knowledge...
There is a lot of info available here once you know where to look!
Take a look at the @Dellmassive thread here and scroll down to the power section. There may be some info of use to you regarding the installation of chargers etc.
A couple of points from my limited knowledge...
- The Dc-Dc charger should be connected directly to the leisure battery negative anyway rather than through the chassis.
- There is no need to use the chassis if directly connected to the battery. Obviously if you have an overwhelming desire to use the chassis make sure the shunt is not by-passed.
- AC earth should connect to the chassis for a safe route back to earth in the event of a short.
- Ideally you'll have a double pole MCB in the AC system as campsite hookup polarity cannot be guaranteed.
Thanks for your reply The Bear78.
I have a couple of remarks/additional questions;
Quote; The Dc-Dc charger should be connected directly to the leisure battery negative anyway rather than through the chassis. Unquote.
If I read correctly (think on Dellmassive's page) nothing (including DC-DC charger) should be attached at Start Batt. -Ve directly to avoid draining by bypassing its shunt (on all EUR6 models, which is what I have). In that same tread it was recommended to attach to earth point 34 under the seat.
Quote; There is no need to use the chassis if directly connected to the battery. Unquote.
That would be good news for me. When looking at the Victron wiring diagrams they seem to do it but then again might have loads connected to chassis as well (not shown in their diagrams).
Quote; AC earth should connect to the chassis for a safe route back to earth in the event of a short. Unquote.
In my diagram they go to the earth point above the wheel arch. I wasn't sure if I should pick a different earth point then the one where DC-DC -Ve is attached to (under seat). Still not sure if in the event of a short on the inverter it would actually run back to the earth as I would then not be connected to any real ground having rubber wheels isolating the whole thing... I know the best way is attach a galvanic isolator but was hoping to avoid this as "overkill".
My biggest concern is to fry 12V systems in the event of of a short because the ground not being a real ground... but hopefully my MCB should avoid this.
So; Could I mix AC Ground + DC Negative on the same earth point? Guess it doesn't matter in the end?
Quote; Ideally you'll have a double pole MCB in the AC system as campsite hookup polarity cannot be guaranteed. Unquote.
Until a couple of weeks ago I didn't really know anything about electricity but I gather that the below would fulfil this requirement?
Legrand TX³ 2P 30mA 63A Type A
Another concern I had was the wiring between the Blue Smart charger and the Orion-Tr DC-DC. This wiring (+ & -) is meant to charge the start battery (through the wiring of the DC-DC to avoid a second cable run forward) but by doing so would I actually ground the whole system to the chassis over this undersized wire? Should I skip the Negative lead and only connect the Positive? Something not right...
Then another question mark; Running my wiring from MPPT to solar panels; From the solar panels wires go to a junction box near rear lights, from there on to breaker and then to MPPT. Should I include the length of the (pre installed) solar panel wires to the junction box to determine the wire size between MPPT and junction box?
And finally; The Positive input in DC-DC charger (from start battery) is currently sized as 10mm2. Cable run is 3,5m, 30Amp, so at 20*C gives a voltage drop of 3%. Just acceptable or HAVE TO increase to 16mm2 as recommended in manual? To run the wire seems a lot more difficult at 16mm2. And additionally; I would have to redo it as I already pulled a 10mm2...
I really appreciate your input! A little more daunting then I had envisioned...
Cheers!!
I have a couple of remarks/additional questions;
Quote; The Dc-Dc charger should be connected directly to the leisure battery negative anyway rather than through the chassis. Unquote.
If I read correctly (think on Dellmassive's page) nothing (including DC-DC charger) should be attached at Start Batt. -Ve directly to avoid draining by bypassing its shunt (on all EUR6 models, which is what I have). In that same tread it was recommended to attach to earth point 34 under the seat.
Quote; There is no need to use the chassis if directly connected to the battery. Unquote.
That would be good news for me. When looking at the Victron wiring diagrams they seem to do it but then again might have loads connected to chassis as well (not shown in their diagrams).
Quote; AC earth should connect to the chassis for a safe route back to earth in the event of a short. Unquote.
In my diagram they go to the earth point above the wheel arch. I wasn't sure if I should pick a different earth point then the one where DC-DC -Ve is attached to (under seat). Still not sure if in the event of a short on the inverter it would actually run back to the earth as I would then not be connected to any real ground having rubber wheels isolating the whole thing... I know the best way is attach a galvanic isolator but was hoping to avoid this as "overkill".
My biggest concern is to fry 12V systems in the event of of a short because the ground not being a real ground... but hopefully my MCB should avoid this.
So; Could I mix AC Ground + DC Negative on the same earth point? Guess it doesn't matter in the end?
Quote; Ideally you'll have a double pole MCB in the AC system as campsite hookup polarity cannot be guaranteed. Unquote.
Until a couple of weeks ago I didn't really know anything about electricity but I gather that the below would fulfil this requirement?
Legrand TX³ 2P 30mA 63A Type A Another concern I had was the wiring between the Blue Smart charger and the Orion-Tr DC-DC. This wiring (+ & -) is meant to charge the start battery (through the wiring of the DC-DC to avoid a second cable run forward) but by doing so would I actually ground the whole system to the chassis over this undersized wire? Should I skip the Negative lead and only connect the Positive? Something not right...
Then another question mark; Running my wiring from MPPT to solar panels; From the solar panels wires go to a junction box near rear lights, from there on to breaker and then to MPPT. Should I include the length of the (pre installed) solar panel wires to the junction box to determine the wire size between MPPT and junction box?
And finally; The Positive input in DC-DC charger (from start battery) is currently sized as 10mm2. Cable run is 3,5m, 30Amp, so at 20*C gives a voltage drop of 3%. Just acceptable or HAVE TO increase to 16mm2 as recommended in manual? To run the wire seems a lot more difficult at 16mm2. And additionally; I would have to redo it as I already pulled a 10mm2...
I really appreciate your input! A little more daunting then I had envisioned...
Cheers!!
There's some though gone into that!
For what it's worth here are my thoughts, mostly just preferences (apart from #1) and not suggesting you change anything really;
For what it's worth here are my thoughts, mostly just preferences (apart from #1) and not suggesting you change anything really;
- Connect leisure battery neg ONLY to the shunt BATT, then the shunt LOAD down to the chassis earth point.
- All other equipment grounds can go to the nearest chassis earth, i.e. for the 6 way fusebox, there's an earth point just 0.5m away near the rear light. From what I've read, good chassis earth paths beat any chunky black cable in terms of volt drop.
- I would prefer inline MC4 fuses near the solar panel over the MCB you show a good few m of cable away, just because the protection is best near to the source.
- I'm not sure I'd be happy with the 1m or so of (concealed?) cable between batteries being unfused, my understanding was any such link should be very short, and placed where damage is impossible.
- What's the purpose of the small red/black cables from the orion to the ehu charger?
Hi T6Jay,
Good points.
1. I noticed I pictured the shunt wrong way around indeed.
2. I didn't know earth was preferable. Was thinking the other way around (because of limited points). If either way I would prefer as much as possible to use cables as I am building this "power box" at another location and want a kind of "plug and play" (semi portable) installation.
3. You are right! Forgot to add those on the drawing.
4. Right again. I will put another compact 175Amp fuse on the other leisure battery. That is what you mean right? Also for max 150Amp current draw, is a 175Amp OK?
5. Small red/black cables from ehu (why are you guys calling it this way?) are meant to charge the start battery when hooked up. So feed is to the input wires from the DCDC charger, avoiding another cable run forward. Would this be ok? Also, I was under the impression this charger had a low amp output for this purpose but now I am not so sure anymore if this device has that possibility. Maybe it can be programmed. Still need to dig into the manual.
Thanks for your time!
Good points.
1. I noticed I pictured the shunt wrong way around indeed.
2. I didn't know earth was preferable. Was thinking the other way around (because of limited points). If either way I would prefer as much as possible to use cables as I am building this "power box" at another location and want a kind of "plug and play" (semi portable) installation.
3. You are right! Forgot to add those on the drawing.
4. Right again. I will put another compact 175Amp fuse on the other leisure battery. That is what you mean right? Also for max 150Amp current draw, is a 175Amp OK?
5. Small red/black cables from ehu (why are you guys calling it this way?) are meant to charge the start battery when hooked up. So feed is to the input wires from the DCDC charger, avoiding another cable run forward. Would this be ok? Also, I was under the impression this charger had a low amp output for this purpose but now I am not so sure anymore if this device has that possibility. Maybe it can be programmed. Still need to dig into the manual.
Thanks for your time!
On point 4, I don't know what the recommendation is, but my (cautious) nature tell me you need a fuse at each end of the + link between batteries, if this link has a possibility of damage. The sizing of this fuse(s), only you can decide. 175A for 150A of current sound ok, if the cable is 200A or more?
On point 5, ehu=electric hook-up. And I don't think you can make this link to charge your starter battery, you would be effectively connecting your Leisure/Starter batteries + terminals together, unless the Bluesmart Charger has some kind of diode/charge limiting (I never heard of this). Otherwise you may need something like this;
Which I believe contains a large diode and resistor, and could be made by yourself for pennies.
On point 5, ehu=electric hook-up. And I don't think you can make this link to charge your starter battery, you would be effectively connecting your Leisure/Starter batteries + terminals together, unless the Bluesmart Charger has some kind of diode/charge limiting (I never heard of this). Otherwise you may need something like this;
Which I believe contains a large diode and resistor, and could be made by yourself for pennies.
I surely understand what you mean by creating a connection between starter and leisure batteries, but I understood that this charger was made to charge multiple battery banks at the same time. Am I wrong by assuming those charging circuits would be kept separated by the hardware?
In my setup I connected it to DCDC input (so start battery) to avoid a cable run but the above comment would obviously also apply if I would connect it directly to the start battery? If that were to be true this charger would not fulfil its promises...
I believe I saw a video of somebody hooking up 2 sets of batteries. Will look again and let you know.
Thx
In my setup I connected it to DCDC input (so start battery) to avoid a cable run but the above comment would obviously also apply if I would connect it directly to the start battery? If that were to be true this charger would not fulfil its promises...
I believe I saw a video of somebody hooking up 2 sets of batteries. Will look again and let you know.
Thx
Actually the three outputs are separated on the charger- there won't be any current from an output to another. Only in direction from 230V to all outputs - separately. I have the same Blue Smart 12V/30A-3 output in garage so can do even more lab testing if interested.
Have you considered to simplify things a bit. Connect the charger to starter battery only (=input of DC/DC charger). This would mean that you charge your leisure battery through DC/DC charger (a hefty one I see). As starter battery anyways is more or less fully charged there is no delay to start charging of your leisure battery.
No switches to forget as you could benefit DC/DC-chargers engine detection logic. No flat starter battery by anyone using dash cigarette lighter socket to charge laptop whole week, or by using van's radio.
Also lead acid type batteries just love to be on charge - they naturally stop accepting charge when full. Could even move the charger (IP65 though) to engine bay next to battery - no need to listen charger blower when sleeping - although it has a special quiet mode (with less charge). Also easier to fault diagnose - just in case - if leisure battery is at healthy voltage = full charge chain is working.
Hi MMI,
Interesting approach. I guess that would mean not only wiring the engine detection to DCDC but also an override to switch on manually when at hookup.
Could definitely work but given that the DCDC only has an efficiency of 87% it gets apparently pretty hot (+- 80*C). When driving that shouldn't really be a problem as the temperature inside is regulated better compared to being stationary. Since my fridge is located next to the power devices I think I will avoid this setup for that reason.
Not sure I fully understand the 3rd paragraph relating to flat start battery. If I would run van's radio all night I would still have a dead starter regardless of any switches to the DCDC...
But very good info regarding outlets of Blue Smart being separated. So I could wire it up as pictured in the first diagram. My only concern doing so is that the whole system would be grounded to chassis only by this relative small Negative wire from Blue smart to DCDC Input -ve.
Blue smart in engine bay would indeed be good but I have already purchased the charger more than a month ago so no return...
Thanks for your input!
Interesting approach. I guess that would mean not only wiring the engine detection to DCDC but also an override to switch on manually when at hookup.
Could definitely work but given that the DCDC only has an efficiency of 87% it gets apparently pretty hot (+- 80*C). When driving that shouldn't really be a problem as the temperature inside is regulated better compared to being stationary. Since my fridge is located next to the power devices I think I will avoid this setup for that reason.
Not sure I fully understand the 3rd paragraph relating to flat start battery. If I would run van's radio all night I would still have a dead starter regardless of any switches to the DCDC...
But very good info regarding outlets of Blue Smart being separated. So I could wire it up as pictured in the first diagram. My only concern doing so is that the whole system would be grounded to chassis only by this relative small Negative wire from Blue smart to DCDC Input -ve.
Blue smart in engine bay would indeed be good but I have already purchased the charger more than a month ago so no return...
Thanks for your input!
Considering you’ve got the victron kit,you can add a 9A dc/dc charger for £40 to equation!....
check out my set up below,fully autonomous! Even on EHU.....priority is given to charging my victron lithium leisure battery first..... then storage charges the starter battery!.and more importantly it doesn’t charge the starter battery while the engine is running,unlike cheap alternatives.
check out my set up below,fully autonomous! Even on EHU.....priority is given to charging my victron lithium leisure battery first..... then storage charges the starter battery!.and more importantly it doesn’t charge the starter battery while the engine is running,unlike cheap alternatives.
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I love this Forum, such an interesting read. Love your work on this @Thomplo its going to be an awesome setup. One note from me, unless I’ve misinterpreted your diagram, the Inverter is fed from the Smart Protect? I read in the Victron manuals that the capacitors in the Inverter could damage the Smart Protect
from the manual:
4. The short circuit protection of the SBP will be activated if you try to directly connect loads with capacitors on their input (eg inverters). For that use case, please use the SBP to control the remote on/off switch on the inverter, instead of disconnecting the higher power DC line.
this how I wired in my Inverter, please forgive my diagram, it’s not as nice as yours!
from the manual:
4. The short circuit protection of the SBP will be activated if you try to directly connect loads with capacitors on their input (eg inverters). For that use case, please use the SBP to control the remote on/off switch on the inverter, instead of disconnecting the higher power DC line.
this how I wired in my Inverter, please forgive my diagram, it’s not as nice as yours!
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Hi @moodsterT6 that looks like a nice setup . . . can i suggest you start a new thread for your build. (so we don't clutter this thread and can look at yours in more detail)
also just one quick note..
this "Victron charge point" black ground needs moving to the chassis bus bar.
unless you plan on swapping that out for a BT battery monitor?
+++
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The Victron quick connect is only there as an emergency charge point for the Leisure battery, It'll probaby never get used. Good point though, I should probably still connect it behind the shunt. Thanks for pointing it out
I already started a new thread for my buyild last night:
Cheers,
Nick
Hi @Dellmassive, I have a similar electrical set up to @moodsterT6 above using the Ctek 250. No inverter & using a TR16 monitor & shunt. I have a Ctek battery charger connected on a quick connect as above at the leisure battery. When you say the ground needs moving, is that for operational purposes or is it to show the charge at the monitor when the battery charger is used?
Have you got your own build thread link . . . ?
quick reply . . its for both reasons. If you are using a SHUNT style monitoring (inc TR16) then the shunt needs to see all the power in/out. connecting a quick disconnect across the battery effectively bridging out the monitor Shunt so it wont see and of the charge going to the battery. that will mess up your monitoring. - its an easy fix, just move that quick disconnect off the battery NEG post to a chassis ground.
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